Chechnya crisis - What's the solution?

[Exilibur]

Haven't seen any political topics in here yet... but I'll give it a try:

The crisis in Beslan has recently ended, and it has made me think a lot about the Chechnyan situation, and what to do about it...

I'm frustrated to see that Bush's war on terror has escalated to a war with terror... not just between USA and a few fundamentalistic muslims, but between allmost all countries and a great deal of people, who for some reason believes that terror is the best way to reach their goals...

And I'm frightened of the consequences.

I have always believed that contrary to Putin's opinion, those people in Chechnya actually had a lot of reason in their demand. I never understood the concept of democratically ruling a people against their will, and I never understood why the russian goverment didn't just set Chechnya free as an independent country.

The Russian government was quick to label the Chechnen rebels 'terrorist' soon after 9/11, something i didn't like at all, at that time, because the Chechnens were fighting a guerilla war against armed troops, and not civilians.

But seing how the situation has changed, i've grown confused about what to believe in.

I don't consider the terrorist as speaking for the general people of Chechnya, but seeing what they've done, how can I ever support their cause in any way?

The russian government are doing pretty much the same thing that Bush did. It is sending armed troops to the center of the conflict. Will that solve anything?

I don't think so. It'll probably just create oppresion in Chechnya, and that will create a lot more people who are willing to do a lot worse things.

Then what?

Honestly i still feel that the russian government should give the Chechnens their land back. No more reasons to be a terrorist for those people.

But i guess the teorrists would have won then...?

What do you think would be the right solution?

[TruB]

if there was an good solution to a problem i think the path would be set.. but since.. alteast I believe there is none.

for the same reason as violents have grown and more criminal acts gets more common.. the wars between countries get less common and groups based on religion i formed..

why is this.. i think guns and hates is an deadly combination.. hate against other religion and agains those with power.. hint USA..
people with money can if they want to who ever they are can get guns.. but only if they got an goal that they think can be reached by these means they will be dangerous.. hint Bin Ladin..



you talked about another group.. i dont know much about that.. but the reason i think is freedome .. am i wrong?..


in the future we will problably see more wars between groups. and to blame we got guns that problably game from a country that produces alot of those.. and with todays knowledge almost anyone can..

its a hardworld we live in.. those who grown up with internet and computers like you and i problably is not in these groups. but those who grow up with hate to others and who are surround with missleading propaganda information could be one to fear in the future.. problem number 3.. wrongfully and bad information..

[MarD]

Heyyo,

Yeah, I think the main problem with this hatred starts off as kids, cause some parents bring up their kids to be racist against different ethinick backgrounds, religion, or even counties. This is why some people seem soo thick-headed, to them they're not think-headed, they're taught that's the right thing...

If you watch the David Chapelle show, he even poked fun at people being braught up with racisim with the old black dude skit.

I also don't think that rebels are the voice of the country, cause in most cases it's just a... hmm, the word's not coming to me.. oh! extremists. Like the Jihad n' such. I also doupt that Saddam was the true voice of Iraq, cause the people seemed pretty happy when they tore down his statue... Let's hope that bush doesn't try to control Iraq's oil, cause if he does, I bet Iraq will fight to reclaim its oil....

I for one would vote kerry for pres, cause yeah, bush has turned into a war-monger, and I know some people who are voting for bush for pres cause he as experience... but to me that doesn't make sense, cause they're in Cali right? n' they voted for Arnold... who won by populairty, I dunno if he has big political experience... I also think that kerry won't start more wars n' stuff, cause he seems like a man of peace. Ack, better stop before this thread becomes a kerry vs bush thread.

anywho, back to the topic: I also believe that they're fighting for freedom. It's like moving out of your parents house, you've become an adult, you no longer need to rely on anyone. Same deal with the Chechnyans, just on a much more grander scale.

I don't think Russia would give up Chechnya without a fight, cause those Russians love to fight. So far, I dunno a single country that was a colony that won it's indipendence through diplomacy, instead of war... there's Canada (inna way, cause it was a colony of france, n' then england, n' so on...), and the States, and Vietnam, and the checks. (I'm not sure how accurate my info is, there's probably more examples, but I only got like, a C- in social studies on past wars n' stuff like that... ) This feels like a repetition of past events, just different places, n' different countries.

But have you heard about the Russianr military training camps? they litterally turn their soldiers into mindless killing machines. I read a newspaper article about a young married couple, and the military forced the man to join the military, and his wife tried to find him n' bring him back home, she couldn't find him for a couple of months, but when she did, n' braught him back home she said, "he was never the same." They like, transformed him...

So yeah, I hope that this won't be as massive as bush's campaign on terror, but I don't see this being anything less than a short war...

[TruB]

about the military training camps.. dont believe everthing you read.. i dont know where you live.. it could stil be true though.. many have low thinking of russia.. im for one have higher thoughts.. like my mother, i knew if i just name russia and communism she would crack out..

anyways.. never believe everthing you read.. hear.. think for yourself.. what could this person win by lying.. and where did he get it from.. propaganda my freinds.. it can be anywhere.. people are so easy turned by this evil and if there is something to fear then crazy drunk people.. its that..

i think i could write very long about racism and such.. but im not going too.. i just leave it here.. yea im tired..

[MarD]

Heyyo,

Hmm, true, I guess it could be just a rumor, but it was my french teacher who showed the class this article cause we were studying aboot france n' the rest of europe... (like I'd read it if I was in social studies... I'm not dissin' that subject, it's just not for me cause most of those teachers bore you to sleep. )

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

First of all, I'm positively surprised to see such a serious thread here - it's good to see that ppl here haven't lost their sense of reality and care about more than their hobbies and harmless jokes, even in the offtopic section of some unimportant forum. This shows that ppl here aren't total geeks... and it's somehow a very reassuring feeling that there are ppl left who think. Ppl who maybe don't have the answers, but do ask the right questions.

As for that conflict, I think that Russian history has always been a history of centralism and suppression. It doesn't matter if you take a look at the era of the Czars, at the Stalin dictatorship, at the post-war Communist Soviet Union or at today's Russian "democracy". Areas (or countries, if you prefer) like the Baltic states or central Asian areas like Chechnya have never been a part of Russia according to their own will. Russian regimes ruled them by force, and at least in the Baltic states, suppressed the old national languages etc. in an effort to integrate those people into a uniform Russia more easily. (In one of those Baltic states, they are having terrible trouble to complete an official dictionary of their native language because when Stalin's troops invaded the country, they were forced to abandon their work, but they had only reached the first half of the letters in the alphabet. Now that they are free, they are trying to get the second half together and catch up on all the modern developments they don't have names for because they were not allowed to use their own language.) I have talked to a Russian guy at my university, and he said that he couldn't understand why we Germans would feel guilty because of the millions who died in the Nazis' concentration camps - he said that under Stalin, many more people died, most of all those who dared to criticise the government and/or fight (peacefully or with weapons) for more freedom.
In all those areas, people have grown to become very sceptical towards the Russian government because over several generations they have learnt that everything that comes from Moscow is likely to be suppression and death. Of course, this breeds an atmosphere of mistrust and hatred...
And in Chechnya, any independent news agency or Human Rights Organization will confirm that Russian soldiers have plundered and tortured, violated and killed innocent people. The so-called "elections" in Chechnya are a farce.
That's why I think that the Chechens have a right to fight for their freedom. However, what happened in Beslan raises the question if it's still the Chechens who fight there, and if whoever IS fighting there is fighting the correct enemy (and in an "appropriate" way). Another question is if such a way is still a viable option at all because it takes two sides to make it possible.
I fear that Islamic fundamentalists are taking over the leadership in the war for freedom and try to turn it into just another battlefield in their "holy" war (now if THAT is no oxymoron, I have never seen one!). This is a dangerous development even for the Chechens themselves because it allows politicians to justify the Russian terror towards Chechnya (for that's what the Russian troops are doing there!). This way, they can say: "Look, this has nothing to do with Chechnya; we are fighting evil fundamentalists there who have declared war on Russia, no freedom fighters." Read the news, and you will see that Putin has indeed said something in this vein already! And now he wants to fight back with more violence, and that's the worst thing he can do.
For IMHO, the solution would be negotiating a moderate and peaceful way of separating Chechnya from Russia and giving it at least partial independence, and not just as a propaganda lie, but really. You can invade a country by force, but in the long run, you can't hold an empire together by force. The Romans had to learn that, the Huns had to learn it, all countries with colonies had to learn it, and that's not the end of the line. And why is Russia interested in Chechnya anyway? Is this poor and remote province in any way vital for Russia's survival or prosperity? No, it's not! Both sides could live quite well with a peaceful separation. But as long as violence on both sides is intensifying, what should moderate freedom fighters say? As long as Russia shows that there is no peaceful way, radical fundamentalists have the better answers and will get the support of the people. It's the same in Israel, by the way.
What really makes me sad is the reason why such a solution is unlikely. It's not because Russian and Chechen people can't get along with each other, that's for sure. I bet that most civilians are fed up with all this bloodshed and the suffering - but they don't have a say. Putin has promised a quick and easy military operation to get the situation under control, and any drawback will weaken his position in domestic politics and make him lose his face because it would mean a defeat, a weakness. And just because of this, women and children suffer and die... for the sake of the reputation of one man, or let's say a government, a regime, a system...
And the worst thing about violence and war: One violent action never comes alone, it is always the starting point of a long line of bloodshed and death, and it sows hatred that in turn can give birth to further violence... it's like a hydra. Cutting off more heads doesn't help. Bombs and rifles cannot fight terrorism. Terrorism feeds on violence, and every shot from a gun and every explosion of a grenade or a bomb will strengthen terrorism and give it what it needs to grow and prosper... unfortunately, the Western world is giving plenty nowadays - maybe too much to reverse this development in the not-too-far future.
Amen...

[-=RAV=-AdrianShephard]

to much to read

[g4s]

Originally Posted by -=RAV=-AdrianShephard

to much to read

yup, so i just read yours

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

Sissies.

[Leagle]

Originally Posted by >BKA< T Wrecks

First of all, I'm positively surprised to see such a serious thread here - it's good to see that ppl here haven't lost their sense of reality and care about more than their hobbies and harmless jokes, ..

Actually I am, no, not apalled, I just forgot the word I was about to use. I'm sure it was shorter. Not dismayed. I thought it might start with "a". )(%$G^)&P_(*BGNY{ H~_(Jhm80}8!!1¬!!

Anyway. I got in a fight with Auxois over this. I am fed up with the ignorant (willfully that is, and those that really annoy me, stupid commoners and arrogant rich people respectively) and those that have been acting to "save the world" recently. Their conduct has been really apalling, but it isn't as if I hadn't expected it.

Anotherwords, I hope it leaves me relatively unscathed until I or someone I can influence is in a position to beat some sense into everybody. I also have vowed not to discuss real issues with forum communities, especially where I like to stick around.

Feel free to carry on, but please do not make too many current affairs topics, it'll only result in trouble.
If you think I am locked in a world of make believe or am just heartless, you failed to read this post. I care too much to see people make a hash of things, unless I just don't bother with it all.