Re: bots are too easy
 

Hello,

i play cs 1.6 periodically on LAN tournaments and on the rare occasions our team members are all online in our private training server. I found podbot_mm and am quite happy to have found this little treasure, since it's the only bot expedient for playing cs 1.6 without cheats. If you really want to become aware how reality looks like then try any bot without the use of cheats and you will immediately find out that it's impossible to play (and this beeing said from someone who is good in cs) since all bots are suited for the use of cheats.

Now, since i expect many (online playing) people to complain about "the easyness" of podbot_mm V3 in the same fashion as it is beeing done allready and since i doubt that many other people like myself will lose words on this forum, i expect the masses will overrun the few (real elite players) and because of that podbot_mm V3 is very likely to become unplayable for LAN preparation purposes in the future, repectively in the upcoming versions.

The behaviour of the bots is very impressive. They tend sometimes just to ignore footstep noises and they also sometimes tend to just turn around and head to another direction/map goal in midth of a battle - forgetting that they had just contact and were in a fight but i can only speak for the skill settings from 0 to 50 (from "noob/idiot" to "average" ..obviously i am someone with such skills). Also it seems to me that they have to check specific camp points (like the left box in the straight narrow hallway in de_dust leading to A). At those occasions the kills by the bots occur way to fast. It's impossible to react even and normally it's actually the hiding/camping player that enjoys has an advantage. The last point would be the only "issue" to actually worth mention.

Now, you may not get much response from them but the few real elite cs players with LAN tournament ambitions, and also success (like me) would obviouly use only your bots. So here goes my thanks and compliment: you did a good job on the V3. A realistic bot for the few elite cs players.

What i would like to know now is if v3.15c is the same bot version as in the all-in-one 2.7 (which i use) and if the future releaes will actually become harder? If so..it would be helpfull to know in the particular release notes. Well for a serious player the podbot_mm v3 is as best as it could get.

Re: bots are too easy
 

I...don't get what you are saying...

but anyway, bots are easy when i start sniping. It is not very hard to kill them with snipers.

It is true that the bots behave better than the other bots. The bots behave in a way that isn't humanlike, which we are all accustomed to, nor botlike. What I mean is that they don't behave like normal bots(crappy bots) and don't simulate human behavior extremely well. But their eccentric behavior does not make them not fun to play with. Their not behaving like bots or humans give them a sense of randomness.

@ CS1.6@LAN tournaments: btw, what's your LAN server? I am really needing a good server to play on. Also, have you heard of hamachi? It lets people who are not on LAN play together on a virtual LAN.

Re: bots are too easy
 

I don't understand why it becomes unplayable for LAN preparation? Only because it's too easy to kill? Did You try them at the skill (100)? They headshot me all the time at that skill.

The whole hearing stuff will be fixed in V3B16.
If there is some more hearable (higher volume) sound from another direction - they try to look there. The people were complaing they don't look around as humans. I did it - now the people are complaing the bot is looking around too much...


You can always check the version of podbot mm included in All-In-One here. If You read carefully You can see the Build number (currently V3Build15g). The release notes are available in this topic. From the page 7 are news about changes since V3B15d.

BTW - why didn't You post

Re: bots are too easy
 

Hello,

i want to worsen the bots aiming. In particular i am interested in making them shoot in slower rates. Which value in the setting affects this?


Additionally i want to know how to change the below pasted settings to worsen the aiming:

You can answer directly beneath the setting/command. Knowing merely if the particular command should be set to a "higher" or "lower" value would be sufficient. An additional explanation to the command would be ideal.

--------------


# VERTICAL (up/down) spring stiffness of the aiming system. This value affects
# the quickness of the crosshair movement, as well as the frequency of
# the resulting oscillations.(default: 13.0)
pb_aim_spring_stiffness_x 13.0

# HORIZONTAL (left/right) spring stiffness of the aiming system. This value
# affects the quickness of the crosshair movement, as well as the frequency of
# the resulting oscillations. (default: 13.0)
pb_aim_spring_stiffness_y 13.0

# VERTICAL (up/down) damping coefficient of the aiming system. This value also
# affects the quickness of the crosshair movement, and the amplitude of
# the resulting oscillations.(default: 0.22)
pb_aim_damper_coefficient_x 0.22

# HORIZONTAL (left/right) damping coefficient of the aiming system. This value
# also affects the quickness of the crosshair movement, and the amplitude of
# the resulting oscillations.(default: 0.22)
pb_aim_damper_coefficient_y 0.22

# VERTICAL (up/down) error margin of the aiming system. This value affects how
# far (in game length units) the bot will allow its crosshair to derivate from
# the ideal direction when not targeting any player in particular.
# (default: 2.0)
pb_aim_deviation_x 2.0

# HORIZONTAL (left/right) error margin of the aiming system. This value affects
# how far (in game length units) the bot will allow its crosshair to derivate
# from the ideal direction when not targeting any player in particular.
# (default: 1.0)
pb_aim_deviation_y 1.0

# Perpendicular influence of the vertical axis on a HORIZONTAL movement. This
# value affects how much (in fraction of 1) the bot will be disturbed when
# moving its crosshair on an axis by the inherent movement on the other axis.
# (default: 0.25)
pb_aim_influence_x_on_y 0.25

# Perpendicular influence of the horizontal axis on a VERTICAL movement. This
# value affects how much (in fraction of 1) the bot will be disturbed when
# moving its crosshair on an axis by the inherent movement on the other axis.
# (default: 0.17)
pb_aim_influence_y_on_x 0.17

# Maximal value in seconds after which the aiming system will re-evaluate its
# ideal direction. This affects how often a bot will attempt to correct an
# imprecise crosshair placement by moving the crosshair inside the error
# margin bounds defined by the botaim_deviation CVARs.(default: 1.2)
pb_aim_offset_delay 1.2

# Fraction of the full speed the aiming system will adopt as speed when aiming
# at nothing in particular. This affects how slow the bot will move its
# crosshair when targeting nobody, relatively to its full speed capacity.
# (default: 0.5)
pb_aim_notarget_slowdown_ratio 0.5

# Fraction of the estimated target's velocity the aiming system will rely on
# when aiming at a moving target. This affects how well the bot will be able
# to track moving targets on the fly, and whether it will have a tendancy
# to aim ahead of it or behind it. (default: 2.2)
pb_aim_target_anticipation_ratio 2.2


-------------------

I guess hitbox aiming by the bots is not possible. For example only shots to the legs or foots.

Re: bots are too easy
 

I don't understand. Before You told me they are too easy, now You want to make them worse...
The bots from the version V3 Build 16 can hear all stuffs better (like footsteps) so please use that one (You just need to update the binaries from here).

These 2 below:
they affect the quickenss and speed of the movement of the crosshair (if you increase them, they will turn faster). But also the damper coefficients they have the influence on aiming (if You increase these coefficients, the bot will need more time to reach the target - it will turn slower).
Try to play a bit with these settings so You will know how do they work. You can change them during the game from the console (without shutting down the server)

About the places the bots is trying to hit (head, the body etc)
These seetings (in botskill.cfg) You need to change before You start the server.

Re: bots are too easy
 

I didn't tell you last time but this time i do for the sake of communication: read the post again please. It shouldn't be too hard to understand. Even the other person (in this thread) understood it the right way.





They are allready too hard to play. I'm using V3.16. Playing on the lowest skills 0-39 and i had to worsen the bot aiming skills in the botskills.cfg drastically. Even the lowest bot skills are with default botskill.cfg unplayable for normal people (without cheats).

Re: bots are too easy
 

I don't think these bots with skills about 30-39 are too hard to play for normal players. Look at the picture. I wasn't cheating. Almost all the time I was just using mp5navy and aug (I was not camping, too).

Note:
pb_maxbotskill is valid only for bots You are adding without specyfing their skill. So - if in Your podbot.cfg there are still some bots added with skill (100), that setting will not affect these bots (they wll be still with the skill (100) and also if You will add bots from podbot menu by add a specyfic bot - it will not affect them, too. But if You use podbotmenu and You sue the option quick add a bot - it will affec them. Also if You will use:
pb add
(without parameters) or
pb fillserver
(without parameters) - these bots will be added with the skill defined in the range pb_minbotskill and pb_maxbotskill.

Re: bots are too easy
 

Well, it depenes on which botaim you are using. Only certain values affect certain botaims.

look at this post:
http://forums.bots-united.com/showthread.php?t=5766


@KWo: what map is that?

@CS1.6@LAN...: KWo is not the only person who doesn't understand what you mean by podbot will not be playable for LAN purposes. What do you mean the mass will overrun the real elite players? Also, what do you mean you will lose words?

Re: bots are too easy
 

cs_arabstreets
And how about You - V3B16 is also too hard now for You on skill 100? I haven't got any info from You if on the level 100 they were also too easy with the previous version for You...

@CS1.6 @ LAN Tournaments - sorry, forgive my poor English which causing me not understand You...

Re: bots are too easy
 

i haven't tried playing them yet. but i'm sure they're ok. level 100 was ok before so now, i'm even happier that someone can own me.

btw, last build 15 level 100 is equivalent to what level of build 16?

Re: bots are too easy
 

I have no idea. I don't have such calculations. You need to compare Your-self these 2 versions. :)

Re: bots are too easy
 

v3.16b

useless for me. I told you dont make them shoot sharper and you make the bots even harder!!! whatever, it's your bot but i switched back to 16a. weird shoot patterns (sudden ultra precise bursts) and an overall unrealistic shooting accuracy and crazy hit/miss patterns. They don't hit a thing but all the sudden 3 or 4 shots and the shots hit perfectly and you drop f*ing dead without time to respond even.

go on and make the ultimate cheater-bots. actually everyone has done that, thats nothing new. the one and only real humanlike bot for cs is zbot, the czero bot. thats some AI right there!

tactics!..teamplay!..and realistic in his shooting skills!


That were some real developers back then. They understood what creating AI is really all about and the sense of the whole idea!

Unfortunately cs bots are all based on a false understandig of creating AI. The idea behind those is to create some game-bot that can match the opponents aimbot..and not to act and have skills (and weaknesses) like a real human..as they ideally should.


The question for an AI creator in this place here is, does he want to create something humanlike or just some bot for the need of some kids cheating on publics. I'd say that is his decision but tells much about the Level at which he does his profession.

I doubt that anyone who creates willingly an unrealistic AI (cs bot in this case - that shoots and plays unnaturally), someday will be the father of the next generation (Robot) AI in a huge Corporation!

Lets not talk about this or start a discussion. Theres nothing to say. Every developer knows very well if his bot is made for some cheaters or actually acts and shoots at a realistic, humanlike level. Unfortunately i fear someone is going to start a discussion nevertheless in order to digg some dirt on the truth.

Re: bots are too easy
 

ur really making me mad here!!!
wtf are you talking about!!

first of all, if podbot is too hard, change the level! WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE TOO STUPID TO LOWER THE LEVEL IF THE BOTS ARE TOO HARD!!!

second of all, ZBOT IS ONE OF THE WORST BOTS FOR CS! end of conversation. zbot is crap. the only thing good is that they "talk" using sound messages


@KWo: don't listen to him, apparently, he doesn't know how to lower the level of the bots or switch botaim types. if he knew how to do these stuff, he wouldn't complain that the bots are too hard. Plus, I bet that this guy is a really really bad cs player.

Re: bots are too easy
 

I did a little match play 5 podbot mm V3B16b (all skill 100) against Czero bots (all with expert hardiest skill). The result - CZERO bots were owning podbot mm everytime (no round won by podbot mm). Sometimes podbot mm was able to kill 1 or 2 CZERO bots. Conclusion - CZERO bots in expert skill are more unrealistic than podbot mm. And You don't need to use skill (100) of pb mm - use for example skill (80) - to see if they are aiming more human-like for You.
Please don't start flaming each other because I'll warn both of You.

Re: bots are too easy
 

Every once in a while I come here looking for updates for podbot_mm, and I was delighted to check out the changelog and see that the difficulty had been increased.
So, I get the new dll and paste it in my podbot folder, load up steam and play.
And then I was shocked... the bots are easier than before.

They used to strafe a lot and pull of some good shots. Now, when they see me, they'll stop and aim. Well, yeah, maybe their aim is better, but they're standing still, really asking for a headshot.

I always play with godlike bots (100 skill), and will usually do a score based on a 4:1 ratio. But with this version I easily went for a 20:1 score.

On the other hand, I've been browsing the forum and it seems some people are complaining that the bots are hard...
Different play styles, or is there any other required file to update besides the podbot_mm.dll?
I had the v3.15c version before updating to v3.16b.

Any ideas?

EDIT: after increasing pb_aim_spring_stiffness_x and pb_aim_spring_stiffness_y, on dust2 I went back to my 4:1 ratio. Bots definitely have better aim, but they take too long aiming (well, not that long, but enough to give me an unfair advantage). They also stop strafing over greater distances, prefering instead to stop and aim, whereas they will engage in some strafing (and even jumping!) at closer ranges.
Overall, very good, best ever!

Re: bots are too easy
 

now that you mention it, I haven't really noticed that big of a difference in difficulty between b15c and b16b. Also, I didn't notice that big of a difference in camping amount. And, yeah, before they did strafe a lot, and I mean a lot. But I think I should edit the bots skills again.

Re: bots are too easy
 

Straffing alot is normal so the bot can follow waypoints and try to avoid being hit or killed.

I strafe alot. :) Proud of it.

The bots were harder when I changed the
pb_aim_target_anticipation_ratio to 22.1
And it is tougher than normal (for me).

Anyway things are changing even if it's little by little. :)

Re: bots are too easy
 

well... this being my first post here,
let me say that I've been reading what "all yuz' " have to say about the difficulty level of the bots...

Let me say that this bots (no ofence , you did a terrific job ;) ) can't even shoot :|

I let everything as default, entered the game and went in front of an bot... IT JUST LOOKED AT ME, went left to right but IT DIDN't EVEN FIRE... i mean "wtf" ...

now seriously, is there an way to make them "GODLIKE" ... I want 'em to kill me just when i buy a weapon at the round start....

Re: bots are too easy
 

It was issue with beta V3B16d/e . For V3B16f it should be OK. What is the version You are using? If You are not sure You can check the version this way - write in console:
meta list
It should return You all mm plugins (with version numbers) You have installed.

Re: bots are too easy
 

10x, knew about meta list :)

I'm using 3.0B16f ... any suggestions ? :(

Re: bots are too easy
 

They don't want to shoot at You from any weapon or just from some specyfic (for exampel ak47) weapon?
You are talking about normal mode or FFA mode (when Your teamnates should also kill You)?

Re: bots are too easy
 

normal mode .
ps : I set them to 100 ( bp add 100 ) and they ... lets say they play like me, when I first played Cs... takes em a year to kill me..... :(
I left everything nominal except for the weapons ( the ones they buy ) and I've set the botskils to 100 ... all of them :( , yet still they aren't as good as I need 'em :(

Re: bots are too easy
 

It was changed last time the code for weapon usage (about weapon priorities) - so please try with default botweapons.cfg to see if it work's better or not.

Re: bots are too easy
 

nope... they're the same :((

Re: bots are too easy
 

I don't know yet, I'm still using the build before you updated to the new weapons priority (I think it is v3b16d). the server I am an admin on has v3b16e, and I didnt' spot any errors yet, although we didn't play with the bots too much.

Re: bots are too easy
 

I am still very mad at cs1.6 @LAN. He criticizes you KWo when he himself doesn't know crap about anything. If the bots are too hard, lower the level. If the bots shoot weird, change the pb_aim_type. OMFG, i'm just mad at what he said about pbmm and you.

Re: bots are too easy
 

done that, 10x anyway, that sorted it out a bit :)

Re: bots are too easy
 

Please try this beta (V3B16g). They shouldn't wait forever before shooting now....

Re: bots are too easy
 

10x a lot, much better :)
still not "godlike" but they're much much better 10x ! :)

Re: bots are too easy
 

Hey Serik what did you do? Yea I have the same problem i have the latest version (installed it a couple of days ago) it works fine, however they are unresponsive most of the time (meaning they see you and dont shoot for a while), once in a while they will shoot and sometimes kill when they see someone for the first time, and other times they just plain shoot but miss horribly. I have spected them before and the cross hair is like always on someone but they just dont shoot. I put it on God Like and its on pb_aimtype=4 which is a botaim2

Also i edited the botskills.cfg

# Settings for Bots Skill 100
MIN_DELAY 0.00
MAX_DELAY 0.0000000000000001
MIN_TURNSPEED 50.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 51.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 100
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 100
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 100


Im guessing i made max_delay way tooo small. Whats the smallest I can make it? Also i tried like .05 and .0001 and stuff but the bots were still really unresponsive. Thanks I'm running Linux CS1.6 MetaMod:AmxMod X.

Re: bots are too easy
 

i editted "botskill.cfg" :

--------------------------------------
# Settings for Bots Skill 0-19
MIN_DELAY 0.00
MAX_DELAY 0.10
MIN_TURNSPEED 10.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 12.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 100
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 100
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 100


# Settings for Bots Skill 20-39
MIN_DELAY 0.00
MAX_DELAY 0.10
MIN_TURNSPEED 10.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 12.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 100
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 100
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 100


# Settings for Bots Skill 40-59
MIN_DELAY 0.00
MAX_DELAY 0.10
MIN_TURNSPEED 10.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 12.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 100
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 100
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 100


# Settings for Bots Skill 60-79
MIN_DELAY 0.00
MAX_DELAY 0.10
MIN_TURNSPEED 10.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 12.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 100
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 100
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 100


# Settings for Bots Skill 80-99
MIN_DELAY 0.00
MAX_DELAY 0.10
MIN_TURNSPEED 10.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 12.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 100
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 100
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 100


# Settings for Bots Skill 100
MIN_DELAY 0.00
MAX_DELAY 0.10
MIN_TURNSPEED 10.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 12.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 100
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 100
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 100
--------------------------------------
hope it helps.. cheers ! :) :sailor:

Re: bots are too easy
 

Err my botskills are larger/smaller than yours lol? Any other suggestions thanks anyways.

Re: bots are too easy
 

The only suggestion is to use V3B17 version (uploaded yesterday) - they are harder again.

Re: bots are too easy
 

well .... i`ve removed the bots from the server... they were good but the "humans" started to complain :))
anyway 10x :)

Re: bots are too easy
 

Yeah the bots is way to easy. Its like were playing with people who just started to play cs. And they camp to much. I have botskill at 99 and 100 there still to easy

Re: bots are too easy
 

why dont you just stick with v3b16d until KWo sorts out everything?

Re: bots are too easy
 

Whre to find it? My boots only look at all directions but not fireing the guns.

Re: bots are too easy
 

I can't upload it, what's wrong KWo?

Ask KWo for a version of pbmm v3b16d

Re: bots are too easy
 

First off all if You want to complain about too easy bots, please write the number of the version You are using (and don't tell me the "latest one"). You can see the number when You type in the console:
meta list
Also I don't think V3B16d works better than V3B17.
@person135 - did You try out V3B17 already?

Re: bots are too easy
 

not yet, though I'm looking forward to playing with them on CSCZ on de_dust2002 after the bz bots learn the map

I also really want to play with them on de_dust4ever, but the cz bots have to learn them first and I have to edit the waypoints for that map too.

i might try it within the next week, but it will be a quick test, like 10-30 minutes