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-   -   New Waypointer (http://forums.bots-united.com/showthread.php?t=1856)

biohazerd87 03-06-2004 17:51

New Waypointer
 
I will waypoint maps I would say I am as good as Soulfather now and I would like to help some people. I am a lot better at custom maps then anyhting else but I can do any map type. Soulfather if you are ever overloaded with work and you got maps to waypoint I will gladly take some of them and help you make the waypoints for them.

NOTE:
These has already been posted but I suck and clicked on the wrong Forum and no one has moved it yet.
/NOTE:

>BKA< T Wrecks 03-06-2004 19:00

Re: New Waypointer
 
"As good as SF", huh? Well, I haven't seen your waypoints yet... :D Post some here, attach them. Lemme see if they're good... 'cause I could use a "partner"...

biohazerd87 03-06-2004 23:11

Re: New Waypointer
 
map preference?


here is one of my favorite maps. I think I have gotten the waypoints on this almost perfect. Of course there are a few bugs here and there. it is a custom map so I have included the map only a BSP file is included. CLUE.ZIP

>BKA< T Wrecks 04-06-2004 01:00

Re: New Waypointer
 
1 Attachment(s)
Ok, thank you for posting the waypoints here, together with the BSP! =)

Just had a look at it... you'll find my observations and comments in the attached ZIP archive. It contains some screenshots I took and "adorned" with my opinion.

And what IS my general opinion? Well, first of all: how can you get an "almost perfect" WP set when there are still "bugs here & there"? Doesn't "almost perfect" imply that all fixable bugs ARE fixed? Maybe just a question of how you define "almost perfect", I guess... 9_9

Well, as for that "I'm as good as SoUlFaThEr" statement, I'll leave all public judgement up to none other than SoUlFaThEr himself.

All I can say is that so far, this doesn't convince me 100%... you'll find details in the screenshots. But keep it up, don't get discouraged! Tweak and learn... tweak some more... be a perfectionist. ;)

biohazerd87 04-06-2004 04:47

Re: New Waypointer
 
almost perfect as in everything I can fix with waypoints IE bots sometimes pile up at a door cause they are all running into it so it won't open or bots getting stuck on each other in hallways things that I have tried to fix but can't with waypoints alone.

biohazerd87 04-06-2004 05:03

Re: New Waypointer
 
Thanks for the tips I have attached some reasons for some of the pics if you wouldn't mind looking. This is a very hard map to waypoint. For a couple of reason. Hallways that only fit 1 person at a time, Small rooms with lots of stuff to get stuck on, and lots of jumping to doors and other stuff.

ZIP

Huntkillaz 04-06-2004 10:36

Re: New Waypointer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by biohazerd87
Thanks for the tips I have attached some reasons for some of the pics if you wouldn't mind looking. This is a very hard map to waypoint. For a couple of reason. Hallways that only fit 1 person at a time, Small rooms with lots of stuff to get stuck on, and lots of jumping to doors and other stuff.

ZIP

hallways : try 0 radius, i foundthe same thing happens on de_snipeit5 so i'm gonna change the radius to zero so they can't get past each other

i'll have a look at this map...too :) though i'm no pro..

>BKA< T Wrecks 04-06-2004 11:10

Re: New Waypointer
 
1 Attachment(s)
Ok, ok. Now I had time to check out this map in game and read the rectifications you posted, biohazerd,...
- The ladders DO work perfectly. Well, style question, I guess... it doesn't look too beautiful, but hey, it's supposed to work for players and not to please other waypointers, so no discussion on that. Fine!
- Come to think of it, placement of important WPs is really not that touchy on this map. I should have considered one thing before criticising: This is NOT a tactical map... I tend to forget such things, since I focus on "serious" maps. 9_9
- This map is really hard to waypoint, and concerning the buttons I'd even say it's not bot-compatible at all, with bots not being able to handle buttons correctly (see PB 2.6mm Bug Report sub-forum). Well, not fully bot-compatible, at least. It's certainly one of the oddest maps I've ever seen. I don't like it personally. :D

However, I played around a bit with WPs (manipulated PWF attached) and found out / fixed some things:
- Rewaypointed the CT spawn area in that chimney room of which I posted the screenshot: Now the entire room is waypointed, and in comparison to before, the door works way better (at least that's what I saw on my PC).
- Rewaypointed the gallery, the rooms alongside the gallery and -most of all- the doors that lead to these rooms. Check it out, have a look at it. See what you like and what you dislike, watch your bots in game...
- Rewaypointed the stairs up to the gallery, making bots avoid a potentially opened door right at the bottom of the stairs. Removed unnecessary waypoints on the stairs (thus eliminating overlapping connections)
- Rewaypointed that large room on the highest level completely. Have a look at it...
- Tried to add button flags to some WPs, but that didn't work.
- I didn't tweak some connections through doors behind pictures, so you may see some glitches there.
- However, I redid the connection 247-187-188 (original WP), i.e. the jump from the gallery to the ledge, down the vase and back into the great hall. In your WP, bots dropped from the gallery railing down to the floor of the hall, losing many HP. Now they get down without losing anything. Besides, I added the camp WP on the ledge in that corner where I took the screenie. Checked with debuggoal, and it worked perfectly. No need to place WPs insider the wall, but I like the way you're thinking... ;)

Well, just backup your WP and have a look at this one here:

biohazerd87 04-06-2004 16:39

Re: New Waypointer
 
I will later I am at school right now but it is amazing how minds work together to make things better. The map is rather poor for bots I tried to e-mail the creator and get him to send me the map edit files and I was going to to:
  1. Set buttons into the walls so bots didn't get stuck
  2. If that didn't work just totally remove the buttons and make the doors open by running into them
  3. Remove just a few objects in rooms for less waypoint confusion
  4. Fix some of the ladders again to make less waypoint confusion. (the one picture you showed me with the CT and T waypoints right next to each other. I was going to place the ladder on the other side of the wall so waypoints would be less confusing.)
But the creator e-mailed me 1 time and said he didn't want to rerelease the map and he hasn't replied to any of my further e-mails.(jerk)
Again this is a hard map to waypoint and I think I did a pretty good job on it.

biohazerd87 04-06-2004 19:30

Re: New Waypointer
 
Yes they are better waypoints but the button waypoints are pointless in this map. I have had better results with no button waypoints than with them.

Huntkillaz 05-06-2004 01:00

Re: New Waypointer
 
u know what i was thinking....if we could make a bot map db..where we take good maps modify it slightly to be bot compat

and release em with good wp's

all this though requires the author's permission though but it would be nice :)

n we could just add an extension on the map '_bot' (de_dust_bot.bsp) to make it diff so ppl don't get confused.

what u guys think?


(ps: if we do do it...it should be after bot's get ported to hl2..)

biohazerd87 05-06-2004 04:20

Re: New Waypointer
 
That is a great idea!!! I would go along with it. But I'm not that great at mapping so someone else would have to do that but I could waypoint them!

Huntkillaz 05-06-2004 04:37

Re: New Waypointer
 
of course maps that are already comp won't be relabeled like that ..just ones that have been fixed ..since there's no wp work around

biohazerd87 05-06-2004 05:50

Re: New Waypointer
 
True. but the problem would be getting permission. Some maps are map by people from Germany who don't speak english and other things as of that nature.

>BKA< T Wrecks 05-06-2004 10:36

Re: New Waypointer
 
Ummm... I just can't find it right now, but we had all this discussion here already - about maps modified for bot usage, I mean. We had kind of agreed on the suffic "_bc" for "bot-compatible". But somehow the whole story got lost...
Anyway, THE person to ask when it comes to modifying maps is Austin. He can remove annoying buttons faster than you can say "bot". He can also change door types from rotating to sliding or whatever you want. Or unstick hostages like he did with cs_rio. I'm not sure about ladders, but ladders are entities, so I guess it's possible to change them, too.

About the problem contacting mappers: I think most of them speak English, and if they don't, they're at least likely to come from one of the stronger mapping communities in countries where English isn't the official language: Mostly France and Germany. I can translate English <=> German <=> Spanish (covering 75% of South America as well, hehe), so if we got someone who could translate English <=> French, we'd already be quite well-prepared. Maybe a guy who knows Russian, though. Yes, there are some great Russian mappers, and not all of them speak English...

Back to the map: Yes, all in all you did a good job (not mindbogglingly excellent IMHO, but good). =) You're right about the button flags, they don't help. I posted that. Just put them there for a test, saw that it didn't help and left them there, since my modifications were not meant for a public release but just for you to have a look at - and not at that spot, because there I couldn't contribute anything valuable. :(

Hot-Doc 05-06-2004 13:26

Re: New Waypointer
 
Hi >BKA<T Wrecks,

just want to help, the thread you mentioned can be found here:

http://forums.bots-united.com/showth...3&page=4&pp=10

(BTW, it was the start of your great waypointing project - hope you still remember it...;))

>BKA< T Wrecks 05-06-2004 14:23

Re: New Waypointer
 
*narf* /me bangs head against wall
Of course... yes, THAT thread! Oh boy, I must be growing old. Thank you for helping me out, Hot-Doc! And heck, no, I haven't forgotten about this project - in fact, more is in the works... ;)

kran 05-06-2004 15:53

Re: New Waypointer
 
i know a fair amount of french....

biohazerd87 05-06-2004 17:17

Re: New Waypointer
 
but why have I never run across a map with the _bc added to it.

SoUlFaThEr 05-06-2004 17:29

Re: New Waypointer
 
i think you cant say yer "as good as " someone with 4 years of waypointing exp if you've waypointed one map.

its cute tho :)

plus ill do the map you waypointed in about 1 hour with less mistakes.....no map is hard to waypoint.

T Wrecks said "need a Partner"

sorry dude im not much on it like i was a while back because of my mapping things.......i have a shitload of creative energy right now that must be released or i will go nuts....please bear with me :)

>BKA< T Wrecks 05-06-2004 17:49

Re: New Waypointer
 
No problem. After all, waypointing was never your #1 business (I don't mean in terms of quality (for quality was sure top-notch!) but in terms of priority, eh? ;) ). I think tasks are split up quite well the way it is now: You make maps (which you can and I can't), and I make waypoints (which both of us can). Dunno if I can call myself "as good as you", but from the feedback I've received so far I'd at least say that I'm not too bad... :D
Maybe I can nag either biohazerd87 or Huntakillaz into the category I'd like to have for a partner, hehe... peace, guys. Don't take me too seriously... :)

@biohazerd87: You never saw a _bc map because we never made one. You know, modifying entities can be done on the server, whereas all clients can play with the default bsp. Thus we (mainly Austin, that is, for he was the only real 1337 guy involved) weren't sure what to do:
1) Make _bc maps, thus causing confusion and forcing everyone (no matter if admin or player) to d/l these new versions
2) Make a little program (Austin) in order to create external entity manipulation files which could be read by a server on map start - this would have rendered making changed BSPs unnecessary - and having to negotiate with mappers from all over the world, too. Interested ppl could have d/l'ed a little cfg file thingy from here, and zap!
3) Leave it all as it is, because at that time the new button code came into reach, and it looked like two of the biggest concerns (buttons & lifts) would finally work without changing anything in the map. Unfortunately, though... *sigh*
That's more or less how I remember it. No warranties... :D

biohazerd87 05-06-2004 19:07

Re: New Waypointer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SoUlFaThEr
i think you cant say yer "as good as " someone with 4 years of waypointing exp if you've waypointed one map.

its cute tho :)

plus ill do the map you waypointed in about 1 hour with less mistakes.....no map is hard to waypoint.

T Wrecks said "need a Partner"

sorry dude im not much on it like i was a while back because of my mapping things.......i have a shitload of creative energy right now that must be released or i will go nuts....please bear with me :)

Never said I was "better" never said the job was hard or easy never I could waypoint faster with less mistakes I am just interested in waypointing if you where overloaded but apparently you're "protecting" your job as a WPer.
Oh and by the way
"i have a shitload of creative energy right now that must be released"
thats cute man real cute.

>BKA< T Wrecks 05-06-2004 19:31

Re: New Waypointer
 
You got him wrong, biohazerd. He's not "protecting his job as a WPer", he just said that he doesn't have time to waypoint anything right now 'cuz he's busy putting his energy into mapping & other projects.
And why do you say "I never said I was better"? Nobody accused you of saying that - or do I need new glasses? No use getting this thread drift into a tone I don't really like to hear - from anyone...

biohazerd87 05-06-2004 20:44

Re: New Waypointer
 
I just wanted to help not get him to make waypoints. I was saying if Soulfather had a lot todo and couldn't get to it all I would gladly help. Thats all I am sayin

>BKA< T Wrecks 05-06-2004 20:59

Re: New Waypointer
 
Hmmm... I'm a bit confused now concerning who has said what and why and with which intention and so on, but I suppose it wouldn't have led anywhere useful anyway, so why don't we just go back to topic? :D
I'll be looking forward to the next stuff you post - haven't seen the latest changes yet...

biohazerd87 06-06-2004 01:30

Re: New Waypointer
 
Found some problems. See pics for details. And I just removed the button waypoints.


PICS.ZIP

>BKA< T Wrecks 06-06-2004 13:12

Re: New Waypointer
 
Yup... I agree.
- Pathway: Right, this would be a nice connection. I focused on a clean access to the stairs for bots running parallel to the wall w/ the doors; didn't touch the WPs where you stood, though. But it's a good idea to add that connection.
- Stacking: Hm. WP prob or bot prob? Besides, did that cause a lasting problem (bots stuck forever), or did they go back to normal after some seconds?
- Too close: Right you are. Once again, this is one area I didn't touch. Maybe rewaypointing the main hall would be a good idea?
- The other "too close" shots: All correct, and I think the the one in tooclose3 was probably my bad. The other ones, however, are from spots I didn't touch. I didn't mention them in my screenies, either, because there were more obvious examples of identical problems elsewhere in the map.
Well, go ahead and fix them - and maybe there are more connections like this left, too. If all these are cleaned up, the bots will navigate much more fluently. This is slowly becoming a really good WP set, and in the end we'll get it to become something even SoUlFaThEr wouldn't say no to. :D And I guarantee you that after doing this for 20-30 maps, you'll be capable of avoiding all these little inaccuracies right from the start, plus you will become a lot faster... ;)
Btw, is this the first map you ever really / seriously waypointed? Just curious...

biohazerd87 06-06-2004 21:01

Re: New Waypointer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by >BKA< T Wrecks
Yup... I agree.
- Pathway: Right, this would be a nice connection. I focused on a clean access to the stairs for bots running parallel to the wall w/ the doors; didn't touch the WPs where you stood, though. But it's a good idea to add that connection.
- Stacking: Hm. WP prob or bot prob? Besides, did that cause a lasting problem (bots stuck forever), or did they go back to normal after some seconds?
- Too close: Right you are. Once again, this is one area I didn't touch. Maybe rewaypointing the main hall would be a good idea?
- The other "too close" shots: All correct, and I think the the one in tooclose3 was probably my bad. The other ones, however, are from spots I didn't touch. I didn't mention them in my screenies, either, because there were more obvious examples of identical problems elsewhere in the map.
Well, go ahead and fix them - and maybe there are more connections like this left, too. If all these are cleaned up, the bots will navigate much more fluently. This is slowly becoming a really good WP set, and in the end we'll get it to become something even SoUlFaThEr wouldn't say no to. :D And I guarantee you that after doing this for 20-30 maps, you'll be capable of avoiding all these little inaccuracies right from the start, plus you will become a lot faster... ;)
Btw, is this the first map you ever really / seriously waypointed? Just curious...


Yes the bots get Jammed forever. I think it may be caused cause your waypoints have a crouch right next to the railing and the jump waypoint goes over the top of it. So when bots try to jump they get wedged on the guy crouching.

biohazerd87 08-06-2004 02:50

Re: New Waypointer
 
I fixed the gay door problems, thanks to Austin(woot woot), I just removed the buttons altogether removed one of the doors cause it wasn't doing anything when there is another door like 1 foot away and made the other door swing.
if you want to check it out
here is the map and waypoints
clue_4_bot.zip

>BKA< T Wrecks 08-06-2004 21:17

Re: New Waypointer
 
Ah, that's a good modification. Stupid buttons!

Your WPs also look considerably better in most places. You got the camp Wp on that ledge in the main hall waypointed, as I see. The way back down is nice as well, no HP lost for bots. Connections through doors have disappeared.
All in all, that's pretty nice waypoint file now. There are still many places where a connection cuts a corner too closely, but that's about it. On such a chaotically built map, bots are bound to bump into obstacles anyway.
You have definitely improved this WP a lot, and it ought to work well now. However, I can tell you still don't use apmd settings or radius manipulations, or maybe once in 20 cases where it would be good to use. They don't bite, play around with them, too. Once you've gotten accustomed to using these two features, you will like them. ;)

biohazerd87 08-06-2004 23:33

Re: New Waypointer
 
I sent the wrong waypoint file lol... man I suck...

>BKA< T Wrecks 09-06-2004 11:15

Re: New Waypointer
 
You guys must get organized... the same happened to Huntakillaz in the other thread. :P
Ok, seriously: Just post the correct WP (got the modified map, only the WP) here whenever you can. I'll be off to work in a few hours, and afterwards I'm gonna go directly to a friend's bbq party, so it'll take some time until I can look at them...

Huntkillaz 09-06-2004 12:03

Re: New Waypointer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by >BKA< T Wrecks
You guys must get organized... the same happened to Huntakillaz in the other thread. :P
Ok, seriously: Just post the correct WP (got the modified map, only the WP) here whenever you can. I'll be off to work in a few hours, and afterwards I'm gonna go directly to a friend's bbq party, so it'll take some time until I can look at them...

hence why iwas thinking about that waypoint sorter thing :)

>BKA< T Wrecks 09-06-2004 14:02

Re: New Waypointer
 
I've got a waypoint sorter... it came included with my smarty-brains :D

No, really, I think I never sent the wrong WP to anyone. And all I do is rename them and put them in different folders. I have something like this:
1) An archive folder with 1000's of PB 2.5 WPs by all kinds of people and in all kinds of quality. I use them to playtest a map a bit, get a hang of it and to see where choke points are.
2) My "active" WP folder (cstrike\addons\podbot\wptdefault), which contains all the WP files I'm currently working at. I only copy WPs into that folder if (a) I didn't have any before or (b) if I'm 200% sure that I want to replace a crappy one I have with a WP some good WPer like SF made. The ones I'm working at are no more than 3 at a time, and I don't work with different parallel versions. I overwrite them as I tweak them further and further, no problem there.
3) My "finished" folder, where I copy every WP I made, tweaked and tested.
That's it. Should I be really in doubt and there are two of my WPs for one & the same map (which never happens), I check dates - the newer, the better it must be.

Usually I work like this:
A) Get any Wp for the map, check out the map.
B) See that the WP sucks (it usually does, 90% I'd say)
[ B2) ] If it doesn't suck, tweak camp flags to make it PB2.6mm-comp. => D
C) Rename it to xxxxOLD.pwf and start making a good one
D) Finish & test, until it's perfect, then copy into "finished" folder.
And then, even if I overwrote my entire wptdefault folder (which I'd NEVER do), nothing would happen.
You guys, however, seem to have various versions (all made by you) for one and the same map somewhere, but why? Beats me. ???:(

SoUlFaThEr 09-06-2004 15:51

Re: New Waypointer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by >BKA< T Wrecks
I've got a waypoint sorter... it came included with my smarty-brains :D

lol have to say the same thing

i have one folder for all of my stuff........when im DONE with a waypoint....it goes there....the packs ive released stay in the zip inside this folder so i have no chance of deleting them.....if im on a map and for some reason i know i did the waypoint and its not mine...i reinstall my zip files.....simple. its an over write that solves the problem.

the ones im working on just stay in the folder where they belong.....until they are DEEMED done...and they stay there too but are copied to my other
"SF WPs" folder.....

if i check a map like T said....and the waypoint sucks...90% like he said, i toss it then start new....so theres no confusion at all.....i mean..why keep a shity waypoint?

i also have a seperate folder for each waypoint of any esteem like T my buddy or a few others who are ok.

that was my 3 1/2 cents

Huntkillaz 09-06-2004 22:50

Re: New Waypointer
 
yeah i got that system too...but for player's who like wp's from certain ppl

they won't know what wp's by who unless they play the map......

biohazerd87 10-06-2004 07:45

Re: New Waypointer
 
i come up with a lot of excuses and very bad grammar but I usually have everything really organized, but I am reinstalling windows XP so I no point in making it all look nice yet

sPlOrYgOn 10-06-2004 08:12

Re: New Waypointer
 
so you guys want a program that can give you the waypointer's name??
how simple to make... :D

>BKA< T Wrecks 10-06-2004 10:10

Re: New Waypointer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SoUlFaThEr
i also have a seperate folder for each waypoint of any esteem like T my buddy or a few others who are ok.

Aahhhh... it's nice to hear things like this. *sniff* I'm moved... :o *squeeze* :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by sPlOrYgOn
so you guys want a program that can give you the waypointer's name??
how simple to make...

Yeah... my program is called double-click. ;) PWF's are associated with notepad / wordpad, and the name of the WPer is always in the first line of the file. :)

biohazerd87 11-06-2004 09:40

Re: New Waypointer
 
ok check this one out it did at 2 in the morning so i don't know how sensible they waypoints are going to look but here are the waypoints for de_alps

Map: de_alps
Size: 11 MB
Download: www.crimsonsunsetrock.com/de_alps.zip

Waypoints: de_alps
Size: 23 KB
http://forums.bots-united.com/attach...ntid=302&stc=1


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