Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?

[botmeister]

This one is probably a really charged political topic, but I just could not help wondering what you guys think, esp those of you who live in Germany.

When I first read up on this story, I was amazed to see that Canada held Zundel in solitary confinement for two years as a "terrorist". A kagaroo court eventually found him guilty of something so secret that they refuse to tell us what it is, then they just now deported him to Germany where he's been arrested for having a website based in the USA that supposedly "denies the holocaust" or something to that effect.

I personally don't know much about Zundel, but it seems to me that no matter what he's done, I would expect the rule of law to be followed, which in his case seems to be arbitary, and he's essentially a modern day political prisoner of concience.

My other concern is that to even discuss what is happening to Zundel could be considered a crime in Germany. So if this topic is illegal, it may have to be removed!!!!!!! I have a link to a free speech site in the USA that discusses Zundel's case (among many other things), but I don't dare post it in here because it really is free speech and that may be against the law in Germany (this server is in Germany is it not?).

I don't know what to think. I guess I thought that the USA under Bush was totaly madness, but it seems the madness is everywhere, including in my own country and in Europe as well.

Sorry if this topic offends anyone, however my interest is NOT in discussing "holocaust denier" issues, I'm only interested in the legal and political implications of arresting a man as a terrorist with secret evidence held against him, finding him guilty of something that is kept secret, then deporting him to a country that arrests him for having a website in another country. It's totally weird!

Opinions, or delete?

[@$3.1415rin]

just searched google a bit for this topic ...

looks like he's a german citizen who lived a long time in canada and who denies the holocaust, which is a crime in germany. I don't know the exact judicial terms why this is not possible to claim something like that despite the freedom of speech, it's associated with 'volksverhetzung' ( incitement of the people / sedition ), dispraise of the memory of the dead ( 'die Verunglimpfung des Andenkens Verstorbener' ) and insult . it's also a crime in austria and switzerland, dunno if any more countries. ( sorry for my translations, I usually don't have to translate such stuff )

and when he's accused of a crime, and is a german citizen, then it's the normal way for countries like canada who have certain treaties with other countries about working together on criminal acitivities to hand that man over to the country he originally came from and where he is accused of something. ( opposing invading a country, taking prisoners, refusing almost all rights for them and holding them hostage on some army base for years without having to deal with any sort of court, like a well known other state did. )

I havnt found out yet why the canadians rejected the canadian citizenship for him, and what could be meant by 'terrorist' ( a well abused term these days )

[TruB]

holocaust?.. please explain..

[@$3.1415rin]

I dont think that's something to make jokes about

[botmeister]

I havnt found out yet why the canadians rejected the canadian citizenship for him, and what could be meant by 'terrorist' ( a well abused term these days )

No reason has ever been given why Ernst's Canadian citizenship was rejected, however it is obvious to me that Jewish lobby groups pressured the government to reject citizenship.

History of events surrounding Zundel's deportation
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/

The evidence against Zundel (assuming there actually is evidence) has been kept secret from even Zundel himself and his laywer, so he had no way to defend himself against the charges which were also kept secret other than a general description that Zundel was a threat to national security, whatever that means.

Justice Pierre Blais was the judge hearing the case. He was a former CSIS boss of all things! CSIS is Canada's spy agency, and Blais actually oversaw the spying done on Zundel when he used to live in Canada, so you can get a clear picture of how bogus the court case was. It truely was a model kangaroo court.

After deciding to deport Zundel to Germany, Blais gave the following reasons:

a) Zundel is a threat to Canada's national security because of his involvement with white supremist organizations, and b) that Zundel is a threat the the "international community of nations" with no reason specified, so we assume it is for the same reason as in (a).

It is clear that Zundel was not deported to Germany because he violated German law, at least no such reason was given, but then again it could be one of the secret reasons.

What puzzle's me, is that "National Security" means the security of the nation, so to say that Zundel is a threat to the stability or perhaps existence of the nation is amazing to say the least. Assuming Zundel really is the threat the government claims he is, then things must be REALLY unstable here in Canada, with groups of foaming white supremists everywhere plotting to make trouble and hailing Zundel as their secret leader.

I thought we had to worry only about super secret al Qaeda terrorist cells, so do we now we have to also worry about super secret white supremist terrorist cells? The whole terrorist thing has become something of a perverse joke.

I think I have a good enough idea of what is really going on, but I'd rather not get into it in here.

The concern I have is that the Canadian government may go after anyone in a similar fashion, and it could be done for any reason at all.

I was wondering what the situation is like in Germany? Do people feel afraid to speak freely? Is Zundel's arrival in Germany making the news or is it being buried? That sort of thing.

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

"kangaroo court"? is that a Canadian saying? never heard that before

I've been looking for that Zundel too, never heard of him before you mentioned this affair.

The negation of the Holocaust, the racism and all this little-nazi-to-daddy-Hitler stuff is not really what surprises me here. We also have such morons in France, and here too the negation of crimes against humanity is itself a crime. Although not on the same scale as Germany. I've been told that even talking "technically" about the Holocaust is an extremely sensitive topic in Germany, which is somewhat a pity because the only way to assume it is IMO to give it all the light that can be shed. There are very well-made documentaries on the Arte TV channel, real stuff of quality, but speaking about the Holocaust with a guy in the street... don't even dream of it. That's understandable, but that's a pity. I would be tempted to say: that's even dangerous.

Napoleon used to say: "what is History, but a fable on which everyone agrees?" The Holocaust is of course no fable, but it's not a reason to refuse arguing about it... technically. If you don't do it with it, you run the risk of refusing to do it for a TRUE fable. It's as if your neighbour was caught by the police under some very nasty accusation, like pedophilia. The guy is sent to jail, and eventually suicides, or finishes his life there. Meanwhile, the gossip in your village has grown strong. Now comes that the guy is proven innocent, and that the whole affair was just a lie: you won't kill the gossip. For the common people, that guy will still remain the criminal they've spread the word about.

Offensing a memory is bad, but refusing dialogue in its name is IMO much nastier. It's related to religion, to dogma. This is in my opinion how the democratic society borrowed and installed the very concept of dogma straight out from religion.

I am pretty much aware that if certain people are reading what I type here, they must be jumping on their seats and call me a revisionist, fascist, antisemist or whatever name they can... because for them such issues is such a sensitive matter that they can't even stand the idea of someone talking about it. I know for a fact quite a few jewish people who still react like this. Does this affirmation make me an antisemist ? I can say that I am personally fed up with seeing these people going mad about others and calling them names (racist, antisemist, revisionist etc.) because the other guy only dared to open this trap about the subject.

But that was not what I was rambling about What I find particularly disturbing here, is the fact that, if I understood right, that guy was detained in Canada under a "National Security Certificate", which is a rarissime thing. I would understand it if it was the leader of a multi-thousand men militia, and that half the Canada was out in the streets rioting already, but HERE ??? That's sort of mind boggling for me. Okay, this moron is a neo-fascist, he spreads fascist ideas and sells out fascist propaganda, whatever he does, he can't be the only one in Canada right ?

I am pretty sure I will be flamed when I say this but: is the extreme severity with which every antisemism matter is wrapped, really proportional to the crime itself ? If I go in the street and call someone "you niggah", the effect is incomparably greater if I call him "you jew" instead. But for that matter, I could as well call a woman "you bitch". What will I get ? Think about it.

That's the only explanation I see, because frankly, I fail to see how in a big state like Canada, the accusation of "terrorism" would suffice in placing a man under a National Security certificate.

On the other hand, a "nazi" "terrorist"... here's something handy to scare off the masses.

terrorism, antisemitism, pedophilia... here are the new scarecrows of this century. The dogma is untouchable. All hail the Holy Trinity.

[Leagle]

He has options here however, being in the EU.

[botmeister]

I hear there's HUGE trial going on in France about some child abuse ring. I read that the last time this happened some guy killed himself over it while in jail, but later all the people involved was found innocent when the accuser confessed to making the whole thing up. What a sad mess.

Anyway, I think you are right with what you say.

It is my strong feeling that the truth never needs laws for protection. I may be flamed for what I am implying, because when you make a subject so taboo, that not even legitimate historical research is permited (see Hayward), then the conclusion one must come to is that there could very well be something to hide.

How can I say what is the truth when all I am allowed to read is politically correct dogma. I hope my point is clear.

I've actually tried to find the works written by Zundel, but guess what, I can't find anything, which further makes me wonder why he's in jail.

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

Not necessarily "something to hide". The danger is much greater that the taboo grow by itself, in fact. In a context where no discussion is allowed, no research is permitted, even the slightest event takes over time the proportions of a monstruous affair. This is exactly how gossips work. The Holocaust is no "slightest event" at all, and it is a monstruous affair, let me make my point clear. But even though it's not in its interest to make it smaller, I am worried that it could become bigger. *

I'm talking about the Holocaust as I would of any dogma. Social or religious.



* ...and that some militaro-governmental agencies make use of the antisemitism scarecrow (as a well known state does with the terrorism scarecrow) to steer the people's mind. But that's another matter. Holy shit, this subject is a bomb.

[botmeister]

I am worried that it could become bigger.

You have some very good insight.

Has the holocaust become bigger, and if so then exactly how big has it become?

As an experiment, you can research some of the main holocaust claims and see for yourself what happens. I warn you, depending on what you find, to do such research can be like the movie The Matrix where you take the red pill and there's no turning back.

This is about all I want to say about the holocaust in this forum. I can discuss more in private or elsewhere. My main interest was to see what other people thought of the Ernst Zundel situation, especially from those who live in Germany. It seems however that the Geman media is not giving the event much attention.