Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

This one is probably a really charged political topic, but I just could not help wondering what you guys think, esp those of you who live in Germany.

When I first read up on this story, I was amazed to see that Canada held Zundel in solitary confinement for two years as a "terrorist". A kagaroo court eventually found him guilty of something so secret that they refuse to tell us what it is, then they just now deported him to Germany where he's been arrested for having a website based in the USA that supposedly "denies the holocaust" or something to that effect.

I personally don't know much about Zundel, but it seems to me that no matter what he's done, I would expect the rule of law to be followed, which in his case seems to be arbitary, and he's essentially a modern day political prisoner of concience.

My other concern is that to even discuss what is happening to Zundel could be considered a crime in Germany. So if this topic is illegal, it may have to be removed!!!!!!! I have a link to a free speech site in the USA that discusses Zundel's case (among many other things), but I don't dare post it in here because it really is free speech and that may be against the law in Germany (this server is in Germany is it not?).

I don't know what to think. I guess I thought that the USA under Bush was totaly madness, but it seems the madness is everywhere, including in my own country and in Europe as well.

Sorry if this topic offends anyone, however my interest is NOT in discussing "holocaust denier" issues, I'm only interested in the legal and political implications of arresting a man as a terrorist with secret evidence held against him, finding him guilty of something that is kept secret, then deporting him to a country that arrests him for having a website in another country. It's totally weird!

Opinions, or delete?

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

just searched google a bit for this topic ...

looks like he's a german citizen who lived a long time in canada and who denies the holocaust, which is a crime in germany. I don't know the exact judicial terms why this is not possible to claim something like that despite the freedom of speech, it's associated with 'volksverhetzung' ( incitement of the people / sedition ), dispraise of the memory of the dead ( 'die Verunglimpfung des Andenkens Verstorbener' ) and insult . it's also a crime in austria and switzerland, dunno if any more countries. ( sorry for my translations, I usually don't have to translate such stuff )

and when he's accused of a crime, and is a german citizen, then it's the normal way for countries like canada who have certain treaties with other countries about working together on criminal acitivities to hand that man over to the country he originally came from and where he is accused of something. ( opposing invading a country, taking prisoners, refusing almost all rights for them and holding them hostage on some army base for years without having to deal with any sort of court, like a well known other state did. )

I havnt found out yet why the canadians rejected the canadian citizenship for him, and what could be meant by 'terrorist' ( a well abused term these days )

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

holocaust?.. please explain..

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

I dont think that's something to make jokes about

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

No reason has ever been given why Ernst's Canadian citizenship was rejected, however it is obvious to me that Jewish lobby groups pressured the government to reject citizenship.

History of events surrounding Zundel's deportation
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/

The evidence against Zundel (assuming there actually is evidence) has been kept secret from even Zundel himself and his laywer, so he had no way to defend himself against the charges which were also kept secret other than a general description that Zundel was a threat to national security, whatever that means.

Justice Pierre Blais was the judge hearing the case. He was a former CSIS boss of all things! CSIS is Canada's spy agency, and Blais actually oversaw the spying done on Zundel when he used to live in Canada, so you can get a clear picture of how bogus the court case was. It truely was a model kangaroo court.

After deciding to deport Zundel to Germany, Blais gave the following reasons:

a) Zundel is a threat to Canada's national security because of his involvement with white supremist organizations, and b) that Zundel is a threat the the "international community of nations" with no reason specified, so we assume it is for the same reason as in (a).

It is clear that Zundel was not deported to Germany because he violated German law, at least no such reason was given, but then again it could be one of the secret reasons.

What puzzle's me, is that "National Security" means the security of the nation, so to say that Zundel is a threat to the stability or perhaps existence of the nation is amazing to say the least. Assuming Zundel really is the threat the government claims he is, then things must be REALLY unstable here in Canada, with groups of foaming white supremists everywhere plotting to make trouble and hailing Zundel as their secret leader.

I thought we had to worry only about super secret al Qaeda terrorist cells, so do we now we have to also worry about super secret white supremist terrorist cells? The whole terrorist thing has become something of a perverse joke.

I think I have a good enough idea of what is really going on, but I'd rather not get into it in here.

The concern I have is that the Canadian government may go after anyone in a similar fashion, and it could be done for any reason at all.

I was wondering what the situation is like in Germany? Do people feel afraid to speak freely? Is Zundel's arrival in Germany making the news or is it being buried? That sort of thing.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

"kangaroo court"? is that a Canadian saying? never heard that before :D

I've been looking for that Zundel too, never heard of him before you mentioned this affair.

The negation of the Holocaust, the racism and all this little-nazi-to-daddy-Hitler stuff is not really what surprises me here. We also have such morons in France, and here too the negation of crimes against humanity is itself a crime. Although not on the same scale as Germany. I've been told that even talking "technically" about the Holocaust is an extremely sensitive topic in Germany, which is somewhat a pity because the only way to assume it is IMO to give it all the light that can be shed. There are very well-made documentaries on the Arte TV channel, real stuff of quality, but speaking about the Holocaust with a guy in the street... don't even dream of it. That's understandable, but that's a pity. I would be tempted to say: that's even dangerous.

Napoleon used to say: "what is History, but a fable on which everyone agrees?" The Holocaust is of course no fable, but it's not a reason to refuse arguing about it... technically. If you don't do it with it, you run the risk of refusing to do it for a TRUE fable. It's as if your neighbour was caught by the police under some very nasty accusation, like pedophilia. The guy is sent to jail, and eventually suicides, or finishes his life there. Meanwhile, the gossip in your village has grown strong. Now comes that the guy is proven innocent, and that the whole affair was just a lie: you won't kill the gossip. For the common people, that guy will still remain the criminal they've spread the word about.

Offensing a memory is bad, but refusing dialogue in its name is IMO much nastier. It's related to religion, to dogma. This is in my opinion how the democratic society borrowed and installed the very concept of dogma straight out from religion.

I am pretty much aware that if certain people are reading what I type here, they must be jumping on their seats and call me a revisionist, fascist, antisemist or whatever name they can... because for them such issues is such a sensitive matter that they can't even stand the idea of someone talking about it. I know for a fact quite a few jewish people who still react like this. Does this affirmation make me an antisemist ? I can say that I am personally fed up with seeing these people going mad about others and calling them names (racist, antisemist, revisionist etc.) because the other guy only dared to open this trap about the subject.

But that was not what I was rambling about :) What I find particularly disturbing here, is the fact that, if I understood right, that guy was detained in Canada under a "National Security Certificate", which is a rarissime thing. I would understand it if it was the leader of a multi-thousand men militia, and that half the Canada was out in the streets rioting already, but HERE ??? That's sort of mind boggling for me. Okay, this moron is a neo-fascist, he spreads fascist ideas and sells out fascist propaganda, whatever he does, he can't be the only one in Canada right ?

I am pretty sure I will be flamed when I say this but: is the extreme severity with which every antisemism matter is wrapped, really proportional to the crime itself ? If I go in the street and call someone "you niggah", the effect is incomparably greater if I call him "you jew" instead. But for that matter, I could as well call a woman "you bitch". What will I get ? Think about it.

That's the only explanation I see, because frankly, I fail to see how in a big state like Canada, the accusation of "terrorism" would suffice in placing a man under a National Security certificate.

On the other hand, a "nazi" "terrorist"... here's something handy to scare off the masses.

terrorism, antisemitism, pedophilia... here are the new scarecrows of this century. The dogma is untouchable. All hail the Holy Trinity.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

He has options here however, being in the EU.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

I hear there's HUGE trial going on in France about some child abuse ring. I read that the last time this happened some guy killed himself over it while in jail, but later all the people involved was found innocent when the accuser confessed to making the whole thing up. What a sad mess.

Anyway, I think you are right with what you say.

It is my strong feeling that the truth never needs laws for protection. I may be flamed for what I am implying, because when you make a subject so taboo, that not even legitimate historical research is permited (see Hayward), then the conclusion one must come to is that there could very well be something to hide.

How can I say what is the truth when all I am allowed to read is politically correct dogma. I hope my point is clear.

I've actually tried to find the works written by Zundel, but guess what, I can't find anything, which further makes me wonder why he's in jail.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

Not necessarily "something to hide". The danger is much greater that the taboo grow by itself, in fact. In a context where no discussion is allowed, no research is permitted, even the slightest event takes over time the proportions of a monstruous affair. This is exactly how gossips work. The Holocaust is no "slightest event" at all, and it is a monstruous affair, let me make my point clear. But even though it's not in its interest to make it smaller, I am worried that it could become bigger. *

I'm talking about the Holocaust as I would of any dogma. Social or religious.



* ...and that some militaro-governmental agencies make use of the antisemitism scarecrow (as a well known state does with the terrorism scarecrow) to steer the people's mind. But that's another matter. Holy shit, this subject is a bomb.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

You have some very good insight.

Has the holocaust become bigger, and if so then exactly how big has it become?

As an experiment, you can research some of the main holocaust claims and see for yourself what happens. I warn you, depending on what you find, to do such research can be like the movie The Matrix where you take the red pill and there's no turning back.

This is about all I want to say about the holocaust in this forum. I can discuss more in private or elsewhere. My main interest was to see what other people thought of the Ernst Zundel situation, especially from those who live in Germany. It seems however that the Geman media is not giving the event much attention.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

Perhaps, I'm not down with the news anymore, but it could be the Belgian one, which has been ongoing for several years now. I think it stretched into France as well.

I think I'll just let pmb talk for me here, it's easier.:)

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

botmeister is right. 60 people in France are put on trial for pedophilia on one or two dozen children, mostly their own children or relatives. They were "sharing" them among different families of abusers. That's the sickest affair we've seen in ages. The facts happened in Angers, a town not very far from where I live.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

the german media havnt covered that event that much, but you can find it without problems. maybe the event that there are more than 5 million ppl without work currently in germany seems to be more important ...

botmeister, you were asking if the german ppl are afraid of speaking freely, and I can assure you, they aren't. And insulting groups of ppl, lying, "volksverhetzung" etc are crimes in other states as well, and I guess we agree that this is some sort of criminal activity.
In my opinion it's ok that denial of the holocaust is a crime, since we cannot allow or encourage propaganda which is surely based on wrong facts. We had pretty bad experiences with propaganda here, so that's the way to go I think. and beside that, if germany wouldnt handle it that way, I guess that would as well be a big topic in other countries medias, just remember the CNN coverage on the elections in saxony where a right wing party got more than 5% and therefore got into the state parliament.

and about talking about the events from 33-45 ( and don't forget it began already years earlier ) isn't that impossible as pierre wrote. ok, you cannot just talk about it in the row in a supermarket but that's hardly the location to talk about it. dunno about the discussions about the french collaboration with the nazis, how much that is discussed in france, and if you have certain holidays to remember their victims. but talking about those events, the current way our society handles it, with friends, with my parents or grandparents and in school is possible and I guess it's everybodies duty to do this, to be able to discuss and convince all those extreme right wing ppl. ok, that sounds a bit too idealistic, but we have to be aware of those problems in the past to avoid similar developments in the future. ( and not just burrying problems in the past like some current president want to ) I have to admit that you sometimes get tired of another documentation on TV, another movie in the cinemas and alone the fact that you are regarded as far-far-far-far-far-right extremist when having a german flag in your private garden. But ignoring aint the way to go neither.

I hope botmeister isnt thinking of germany of a nonfree speech wannabedemocracy :)

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

Asp is right about German media hardly covering the Zundel case. Anyway I think that the fishier part of this case is indeed the "kangaroo court" in Canada in all its suspicious circumstances and not so much the fact that denying the holocaust is a crime in Germany.

The bigger story behind all this is what Pierre mentioned, the dogmas of political correctness, which lead to nothing but screaming hysteria.

The holocaust topic is a sensitive one in Germany, although you can discuss it pretty freely in a private atmosphere. However, if you are a politician or in any other way a person of public interest, it can be enough to kill you politically if someone says that a friend of a cousin of his friend had heard that some colleague from his company had heard that someone had said that some other guy had said that he had heard rumours about you denying the holocaust. Guillotine down, case closed.

Right now, the right to demonstrate is being narrowed in view of the possibilty that neo-nazis might hold a demonstration right next to Berlin's holocaust monument. Freedom of speech is on the verge of being attacked, too. We live in dangerous times when that hyteria I mentioned can win over the remaining bits of reason and open debate. :|

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

for this, the French have been utter cowards. France woke up at the Liberation as if every frenchman was a proud member of the Resistance. The top heads in the Vichy government have been put to trial and sanctioned, but NONE of the usual daily collabos assumed their past. There was also antisemitism in France in the 30's (like just about everywhere else in Europe, take Poland f.ex.) and since the act of collaborating only consists in trying to get along for the better with the occupying force, eventually giving out the name of one or two jew in one's neighbourhood, it was some very silent, underhand, sneaky business. Nothing to see like actively supporting a party and being a militant - such things you cannot hide. But hardly anybody knew that his neighbour was a collabo... except for the most obvious ones. These guys usually had trouble at the Liberation, their wives and the women that were collaborating with the nazis got their hair shaved so that everybody could recognize them, and other vengeful acts took place. But I am pretty certain that a good half of the most active people seeking revenge on the collabos did it just because they were collabos themselves and they wanted to bury their past ASAP.

Now the young generations speak absolutely freely of the Resistance and the collaboration, just anywhere and with anybody, be it in a bar with unknown folks (which I'd bet that's where it happens the most), and almost everybody is pretty much aware of what really happened, however that was NOT the case with our grandfathers. The taboo was the rule then, and those who talked about it were not saying it outloud. I still learn a lot of things each time I listen to my grandfather talking about the occupation. I have no big problem understanding the fascination a well-disciplined army like the Wehrmacht could have had on some frenchmen. The one of my grandfathers who's dead used to say he was always impressed by their discipline.

However, I was not talking of "freedom of speech" in the sense where it's constrained by the law, but rather of taboos caused by feelings of guilt. My godfather married a german woman who told me once that such discussions were not easy to have among nationals in Germany.

Stupidly enough we do not have any holiday for the victims of the nazism, which is a shame but IMO also a political choice: 80% of the Resistance were communists.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

i really dont have clue what it is..

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

@$3.1415rin wrote:
What comes to mind that I think we all can relate to, is the experience we had over at Nukebox. It was OK to say just about anything you wanted to say, but the moment you said anything about the insanity, the lies, and the desceptions of the Iraq invasion, suddenly the aux came down (pun intended). I got banned from Nukebox twice. Yet if you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that almost everything I wrote about was the truth.

So having said that, no I definitely, absolutely, positively do not view Germany as a bastion of free speech, in fact I'm debating if it is worse than Canada or not, now that I've seen the results of the Zundel "kangaroo trial".

The concept of a "democracy", well that's another topic where my views took a looog time to form. Don't worry I'm not a communist, a facists or a right wing nut job (and so on). I guess what I'm saying is that to paint "democracy" in a negative light is another one of those taboo subjects, but Look at the USA, it was supposed to be the pinicle of democracy and freedom, yet it more resembles a fascist state than anything else (all 14 points).

TrueB wrote:
I assume you are making a very important and valid point, or perhaps I am being way too clever for my own good and am seeing brilliance where none exists 8)

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

PMB wrote:
It is so sick, it is unbelievable. The last similar trial in France was unreal and very complicated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3859115.stm

There are a lot of unbelievabley sick things going on in the world. I have seen images of the affects of the Iraq war that would make many people throw up. Unfortunately, no one is going to jail over these horrific crimes.

I hear Donald "Runsfeld" cancelled a trip to germany out of fear of being arrested for war crimes. A group in Canada tried to have Bush arrested when that piece of s#*t stepped on Canadian soil.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

Ah yes, auxois.9_9 He started a fight with me for once for explaining about the diferences in costs of labour between the US and Iraq. He found it threatening.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

About the sex-crime thing, fair enough. I really only remembered the Belgian one from a while back because it lasted a while and rocked the country. This is just another example, but it seems to have been a much more bizarre network. The one I was thinking of was more a kidnap thing.

And on the subject of Iraq et-al. While this stuff leaks out, etc. it never really takes hold. It always and consistantly gets forgiven because it's "us, the good guys". People really see it that way, when it comes to the crunch.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

And thats why they're distancing themselves more and more from their allies all the time.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

@PMB

It's an extremely sensitive topic in France too. This just happened
French professor suspended for doubting Holocaust

It seems "doubting the Holocaust" means only to ask questions about it.

I'm a little bit of a history buff, so I did some of my own research and learned that the word Holocaust with a capital "H" did not exist prior to 1978.

I hope I won't be accused of doubting the Holocaust for pointing this out ;)

The capital "H" version of the word appears to of been coined after the NBC TV miniseries Holocaust which was first broadcast in 1978. After the miniseries, the word "Holocaust" became a household word, and found its way into dictionaries, encyclopedias, history books and so on.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

I won't complain about that guy. He's a far right militant, the same party as Jean-Marie Le Pen who is the openly racist leader of the Front National. These guys always use the same technique to earn votes: every two or three months they state something highly scandalous, all the press talks about them, and they make use of the next three months to try and minimize what they said. And the worse is that it works.

Moreover that guy was not asking the right questions, and especially NOT in an honest way. He had a racist agenda, it's fair that he be sanctioned.

Re: Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?
 

Be careful, the same things were said about Zundel when they rail roaded his ass off to Germany using illegal star chamber tactics.

You may be next, and why not?

I have yet to speak to anyone who belongs to one of these right wing militant groups, but I have found that there are many people who are asking legitimate questions and doing legitimate research on all sorts of dogma, not just the Holocaust. Some of the work I've seen is rather impressive and can be independantly confirmed.

TBH I've become so cynical due to the habitual lying from both government and media that I don't even think these racist groups exist. They are probably made up just to scare us, or to discredit the people who are asking legitimate questions and doing legitimate research.

Think about 9/11 and all the lies we've been told. Where are the hordes of terrorists? Why was the 9/11 crimes never properly investigated? Don't forget the lessons of Gulf War II. Where are the WMD's, the mass graves? Where are the flower tossing happy people? People forgot about the lessons of Gulf War Part One where we were told that babies were being ripped out of incubators and thrown onto the hospital floor.

Are we supposed to think that proven habitual liars and criminals are honestly trying to protect us from even worse liars and criminals? I seriously do not need or want their protection.

What I think is nuts, is that because of the Zundel affair my curiosity got the better of me, and now I'm digging deep into a subject that I had absolutely no interested in. I think the best way to keep people like Zundel silent, is to pay them no attention at all.