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sfx1999 05-01-2005 04:15

Religion thread
 
I was wondering what religion people are. So, I've started a thread.

I am Presbyterian. I do not necessarily believe in everything my church believes in, though.

I wish I had some photos of my church. It has an old feeling to it. The problem is that it is about to go out of business. The minister is a little to evangelical for the congregation.

HangFire 05-01-2005 04:28

Re: Religion thread
 
This could spiral into stupidity like most political and religious debates, but ah well.

I'm of no particular religion. I try to keep an open mind, and I'd honestly like to believe in a 'god' or some other greater good or divine plan, but its difficult to convince myself of it.

I'm not neccessarily athiest, I can't say that God does not exist, I don't know that. I figure a life of sin followed by a deathbed repentence is the best way to go :).

sfx1999 05-01-2005 05:42

Re: Religion thread
 
I don't think it will turn into a flamewar, unless there are some really religious people that are going to show up out of the blue.

TruB 05-01-2005 11:50

Re: Religion thread
 
none believer..
but i do believe that religion serve a perpose..

stefanhendriks 05-01-2005 12:45

Re: Religion thread
 
i find religion an interesting subject. I am not religious, but i do not believe in 'nothing' or in a predefined existance you can read from books or hear by people telling it. I do believe there is more between life and death as between heaven and earth...

Personally i have experienced things that make me 'fear' life of what it will bring to me; i have had long talks about this with PMB. As i'm also a fan of The Matrix and tried for fun comparing the 'theories' presented there into real life. It actually is not that hard to say, it is possible!

Lets just say, everything has the basic definitions of:
action->reaction

this is a fact, for everything in the entire universe. Meaning, when the universe started (assuming it started!), it started with a set of 'conditions' (that triggered it). Now, these action/reactions where the base for all actions/reactions going on right now. Even the fact that i am typing this, is because of an reaction/action based principle. Meaning, that everything that i have lived through was logically to be explained, and everything that will be coming in the future will be 'predictable'.

If you try to see the bigger picture, this means nobody lives their life as they 'want to'. Because even the very things in your brains are based upon action/reaction, etc etc etc.

Now, about religion, i see it as a way to explain what is not really explainable through logic. And people try to make it 'logical' for them in some sort of form.

I have read very cool stuff about religions, like there is (was?) a trend going on where people started mini-religions, ie, every person has its own religion and its widely accepted. You can see lots of churges run out empty because the people do not 'fit in'. As with many things, you cannot generalize people, so you cannot generalize religion either.

See, its such a big subject, i can talk about this for hours and hours....

von Ryan 05-01-2005 14:24

Re: Religion thread
 
Well, if you ask me, I'll say I'm catholic, but I don't really "follow" the religion... I don't go to sunday services, I haven't confessed my sins for a long time...

I think I identify myself more with the "baroque man filosofy". As you know, the filosophy of the baroque age was Carpe Diem. It emphasizes the brevity of life, and tells you to enjoy it before it's too late. The baroque man followed that filosophy, but he soon repented himself of his sins, and he made something to "make up" for those sins, like donating money, cattle, etc. for the church, among other things.

So, I think I'm pretty much like that, but I just repent my sins, I don't donate money or stuff for the church... Just not my thing, you know... :|9_9

P.S.=Keep in mind that I studied Brazilian and Portuguese literature, the baroque thingie may be different in other cultures...

biohazerd87 06-01-2005 01:24

Re: Religion thread
 
i would say that we should stay away from threads like these... personaly i don't care but you know how people are with religion... and we don't want newcomers to become upset with BU cause of what we said etc... this is just my opinion but i have no control over this

dead bwoy 06-01-2005 02:21

Re: Religion thread
 
My religion is music!
You may say, "That's not a religion!"
Here's where I searched the web for a definition of the word "religion." I found that this word is one of the most difficult to define. Check out all these definitions:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:religion
This article says it best:
Quote:

from: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...ef_problem.htm
Academic literature is filled with attempts to describe what religion is and many of those attempts are very unhelpful. Definitions of religion tend to suffer from one of two problems: they are either too narrow and exclude many of the belief systems which most people will agree are religious, or they are too vague and ambiguous, leading one to conclude that just about any and everything is actually a religion.
(religious conviction, religious faith): Form of spirituality that involves meditation, prayer, and/or churchgoing.
www.hcrc.org/diction/r.html
This definition actually accepts me and my relationship with music as a religion, whereas many definitions do not.

sfx1999 06-01-2005 02:23

Re: Religion thread
 
Steafan Hendriks, I've heard of that in philosophy.

Every cause has an effect, therefore there must be a first cause.

There are other ones I can't remember at the moment. The thing that always made my mind explode was what caused the first cause.

Pierre-Marie Baty 06-01-2005 03:12

Re: Religion thread
 
I am anarchist, hence atheist.

dead bwoy 06-01-2005 03:44

Re: Religion thread
 
PMB: You support the downfall of organized government (Anarchist), therefore you don't believe in the existance of god (Atheist)?
Or are you trying to start a Government vs. Religion argument?

koraX 06-01-2005 09:57

Re: Religion thread
 
well I'm christian :)

Whistler 06-01-2005 10:54

Re: Religion thread
 
I don't believe in any gods, hence atheist.

but I'm not sure if the GNU philosophy is a "religion" as I agree with most of it. Well I still have M$ Windows, HL1 and NVidia's proprietary driver for GNU/Linux installed on my computer so I'm not a totally GNUisance :)

edit:
here is a funny comparation of different religions (no offense to anyone!):
http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/shit-happens.html

Pierre-Marie Baty 06-01-2005 11:01

Re: Religion thread
 
@dead bwoy: the motto of the anarchists is "no god, no master"... I just wanted to see how people would react to it :)

stefanhendriks 06-01-2005 11:49

Re: Religion thread
 
i thought a true anarchist also does not tolerate ANY master, meaning goverment and such... hail ur president PMB :P

Exilibur 06-01-2005 15:36

Re: Religion thread
 
interesting topic :)

Personally i define religion as a belief in a higher good.

A higher good is an over-human ethic disticintion between right and wrong.

What I mean here is that right or wrong is not based on beliefs and individual viewpoints, but in a truth that is unquestionable.

for example a higher truth in the old part of the bible is the 10 commandments, while jesus said something about to love each other and forgiveness.

So in that regard, believing in a religion would be to believe in some truths regarding ethics and fairness.

I believe that opinions are created in a society as a 'product' of the society. In that way our opinions are shaped by our experience and life so far. In that sense, thruths that seem to be just and fair could be unimaginable in another being's mind. (That's kinda like Marx, if it reminded anybody of something)

As an international semi-capitalistic society, a lot of citizens in this world (especially western) are born and raised with values that makes the foundations of the opinions of these human beings, and in that sense me we will all agree on some of the cornerstones of human societies (don't kill), and we might also agree about some basic capitalistic values (the market and economy), and in the same way agree more or less about some common ethical values, that are agreed upon as unquestionable. (basically those things that we call right and wrong)

So because I believe that our sense of just and fairness is created in the society, I don't believe in religion... To answer the question: I'm an atheist.

To be honest to myself, I need to confess that those viewpoints are trapped in their own logic, since they are just the sum of my experience with life so far.
Are they right or wrong?.. I don't think so.

At least it's only my personal opinion, so I anybody feels like taking offence then please don't bother, because it isn't meant to provoke :)

stefanhendriks, I've actually thought about pretty much the same thing... As I see it, assuming that human beings have a free will, it actually disproves logic. (which makes everything a bit silly, since the very same argument wouldn't be valid without logic).
So instead I tend to believe it disproves a unified theory about the universe.

It was Aristoteles who talked about the unmoved mover... He saw him as a god sitting somewhere wondering about his creation. For Platon this god was the idea behind logic, and in that sense he was 'logic', nothing more, nothing less. Platon and Aristoteles believe btw in a higher thruth, both believing that by logic we could realize this thruth, and conclude what was right and what was wrong. (which I've had some furious fight with my philosophy teacher about ;))

HangFire 06-01-2005 16:27

Re: Religion thread
 
http://sinfest.net/devil_stand_color.jpg

stefanhendriks 06-01-2005 16:52

Re: Religion thread
 
actually i find "right or wrong" too subjective. As for one person "right" may for another person be "wrong". Therefor the whole logic ever build on those terms, is doomed to fall apart.

Quote:

stefanhendriks, I've actually thought about pretty much the same thing... As I see it, assuming that human beings have a free will, it actually disproves logic. (which makes everything a bit silly, since the very same argument wouldn't be valid without logic).
So instead I tend to believe it disproves a unified theory about the universe
unless, our logic, which is driven by our brains, which is based upon chemical reactions... are (as the latest said, chemical reactions.....) ACTION->REACTION

so, eventually , you think you have free will? You really think so?.... REALLY? ;)

Exilibur 06-01-2005 17:47

Re: Religion thread
 
That right and wrong is subjective, is kinda what i tried to say with the post up above, so I agree with that...

I tend to assume that I have a free will, because if I don't have a free will, I obvioulsy would assume it anyway, so it doesn't make a lot of sense not doing so :D

And if I don't have a free will, then it doesn't really matter, I guess.

Cpl. Shrike 06-01-2005 18:24

Re: Religion thread
 
Action >> Reaction it does not matter.

Humans and Primates maybee even lower have free will.
Even if its cause by a reaction. To each reaction there are several reactions.
It's upto the individual to choose a reaction (or even stay passive, which is also a reaction).

If some how we all controlled from above ....
Implying no free will, well up to today there is no evedenice that we (earthlings) are being controlled. Even if we are controlled, but then again we don't know it.
If you don't know you are controlled you make a free chooice depending on external and previous ecountered actions.

If some feels or says there is no free will then one could just as well put him self 6 feet under. Or enjoy the fact your a marrionet.


Oh btw im a non believer as far as religion goes.
But i do believe in everything that IS.
Im aslo not saying im an atheist for that matter I don't know what i am or in which box you can put me.

stefanhendriks 06-01-2005 19:00

Re: Religion thread
 
i don't say we are implied by a higher power. I say we somehow have no real control on our reactions? Well, thats a deep theory. But you say 'you choose'. No, the chemical reactions in your brain make you choose. How this chain-reaction of chemical reactions through your brain run is a riddle to me.

Its a super big comlex subject. But, then again, perhaps there is also a world we do not know about (like a 5th dimension) that influences our 'choices', aka, soul? Perhaps, that will make it sort of yin-yan.

Logic -> unlogic
Good -> evil
etc

But, that also makes me thing of equations... rofl. Eek, life is math :D

HangFire 06-01-2005 19:29

Re: Religion thread
 
You are those chemical reactions in your brain, that is your conciousness and your existence. If it wasn't "you" being those chemical rections and making the decisions, then you'd be some sort of observer, helplessly experiencing that brain's whims.

Exilibur 06-01-2005 20:15

Re: Religion thread
 
how do you know? :P

Those chemical reactions might as well be responsible for your observations.

sfx1999 06-01-2005 20:17

Re: Religion thread
 
Everyone knows that your pineal gland is actually an antenna. :P

von Ryan 06-01-2005 20:57

Re: Religion thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sfx1999
Everyone knows that your pineal gland is actually an antenna. :P

That's a thought... :D:P

MarD 06-01-2005 22:00

Re: Religion thread
 
heyyo,

I'm Roman Catholic. :)

I'm quite a believer, I go to church on sundays... but I'm not too happy aboot our current priest... it feels like he fears me.. LMAO, I'm not joking guys! I think he really does! He'll like be singing all happily, and then turn and see me and then instantly sulk, and he tries to avoid any eye contact with me.... Maybe I shouldn't be wearing my sweater with spikes onnit to church though, and wearing my black cargo pants... I probably look like one imtimidating Mexican with a shiv in his back pocket to go stabby stabby! :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Family Guy
Bathroom Roaches: "I'm gonna cut you soo bad... you're gonna wish I diddn't cut you so bad!"
Tennant: "Yeah, it's bad."
Brian: "I blame the schools..."

:D

One good theory on religion I remember hearing before is: all religions praise the same god, but we all see it in different perspectives. It's like those confusing pictures. Ya know? the 2 faces n' the vase? it's all about perspective... Intruiging eh? :)

HangFire 07-01-2005 01:37

Re: Religion thread
 
Yeah but then theres the religions that are polytheists, and also the religions that don't neccessarily worship a God or Gods of any form.

stefanhendriks 07-01-2005 11:28

Re: Religion thread
 
i've seen a good documentation about religions; all religions today where based off the very principles of 'one ' religion sort of 5000 years ago or something. It was pretty interesting.

I see it like this, there are people who like to believe 'together', so they find 'support' in what they believe, because other believe it so as well.

Everbody's 'believe' has a different experience. Though you might think the other person has the exact same feelings, i think this is to much egocentrism. The tricky part is, you can never tell how someone feels, because you cannot have his senses .. ;)

I think everybody searches for the same thing; most generally put 'meaning of life'. And to fill that in, you can have many reasons and theories. Like "i am some sort of cause->effect, action->reaction" result and therefor bring continiuty in the timeline to steer the future into a particular direction. Or you think you're supporting some higher power for the 'good' (subjective!) of mankind.

What i find interesting in life and religion, is that i always wonder if there are more senses then we have now. I believe there are more senses, because how can animals 'feel' danger for example. Like the tsunami in Azia. I heard people felt the danger and ran away while humans where still like there "wtf".

Also , there is 'mother instinct' and other 'instincts'. I find it funny how we call those 'instincts' and the other 'senses'. Probably due the fact we humans can 'proof' those 5 senses, and everybody has them. But after that, nobody cared about more senses.

Anybody seen the "Sixth Sense" , about that little boy who sees dead people? Imo, there could be a seventh, eigth sense too ;) What about death itself?

ah, to much to fit into this thread rofl.

Pierre-Marie Baty 07-01-2005 15:25

Re: Religion thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HangFire
You are those chemical reactions in your brain, that is your conciousness and your existence. If it wasn't "you" being those chemical rections and making the decisions, then you'd be some sort of observer, helplessly experiencing that brain's whims.

No, you would not be observer, because the observation itself is an action that requires such reactions to happen. The real question here is, what is consciousness. To me it's an emergent phenomenon.

MORPHEUS: What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about your senses, what you feel, taste, smell, or see, then all you're talking about are electrical signals interpreted by your brain.

... and he's technically right :)
On top of these chemical reactions between the synapses, what drives the brain is electric patterns. The chemical reactions happen only to allow the electric pulse to jump from one cell to another. The brain is the only human organ that can be said to be electronically coded. The signals the brain interprets are coded in frequency, intensity and duration. These signals are aperiodic bursts of pulses of certain lengths (I would rather say, whose frequency decreases more or less regularly). It can happen that several signals in resonance fry a cell itself, in this sense we are all "brain-damaged" by nature. This is what our uniqueness comes from, and what makes our consciousness, as an emergent phenomenon, differ from others although being sufficiently similar to feel the link of the species, being the sum of our hardcoded genetical program (our electronic diagram, if you want), and our inner transformations (the wires we cut).

stefanhendriks 07-01-2005 15:57

Re: Religion thread
 
Quote:

MORPHEUS: What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about your senses, what you feel, taste, smell, or see, then all you're talking about are electrical signals interpreted by your brain.
word!

MarD 07-01-2005 21:35

Re: Religion thread
 
Heyyo,

*brains explode from too much psychology at once* :P

... also, is it wrong for me to be more interested with your guy's deep discussions than my schoolwork? I'm learning how cd rom drives work, and for some reason, I'd rather listen to this stuff... I think I'm aiming for the wrong profession here, lol...

stefanhendriks 07-01-2005 21:51

Re: Religion thread
 
rofl yeah; but you notice that when one talks about religion, it mostly goes to - meaning of life... which is such a subject one can talk for hours about :D

TruB 08-01-2005 00:50

Re: Religion thread
 
religion is meaning of life.. in most cases.. all cases.. DA case..

i have no religion.. so i got no meaning..

HangFire 08-01-2005 01:11

Re: Religion thread
 
The meaning of life = poontang.

I mean, seriously. All organisms continue to exist so they can procreate the species.

MarD 08-01-2005 01:19

Re: Religion thread
 
Heyyo,

Lol, hey Stefan, if it wasn't a discussion aboot life before, it sure is now. :D

@hangfire: darn rights man. It's even one of our primitive instincts to procreate... but we cheat and use condoms to allow for extra fun. :P

[BBB]sluggo 08-01-2005 04:52

Re: Religion thread
 
Hi, I'll dive in to this discussion as well.
I don't believe in any Gods, I see religions as more of an evoulution.
Over time religions have evolved and died, like for example in Sweden, about 1500-2000 years ago people believed in other gods than the one(s) we have now. Some people still believe in the old gods (like 10 or 20 ppl ;) )
Back then, they thought that their gods were the 'correct' gods, then came another religion and forced people to change their believes or they would suffer, or/and die.
I think over time the religions we have today will dissapear, because who is to say that the religions of today are the 'correct' ones?

And today we look back at the old religions and think "black ages", "heathen" and more things like that.
As I see it there will be no new 'religion' as we speak of today, I think there will be some, "Science believe". What I mean by that is that people will need scientifictly proven (spelling?) facts before beliving in something.
And eventually we will think of these times as the "black ages and all people were heathens back then..."
And after the Science ages ... who knows maybe it's time to start believing in Gods again :)

Hope I didn't offend anyone! I think everyone has the right to belive in whatever feels right for him/her.

Whitman82 08-01-2005 05:20

Re: Religion thread
 
Religion is the cause of all war. Screw religion

[BBB]sluggo 08-01-2005 05:33

Re: Religion thread
 
Well, the meening of all religions (that I know of anyway) are peace... Then some persons use religion to get/do what they want.
But i think the tread got a bit off the intended track here...?

HangFire 08-01-2005 05:55

Re: Religion thread
 
The religions aren't what causes violence/stupidity, its some of the followers who use their religion as an exscuse for their actions. No popular modern religion (Christanity, Islam, Buddhism, etc) says anything about persecuting others because they don't worship the same God as someone else does.

Don't attack religion as a whole just because some people are misguided, ignorant fanatics.

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."
-Ann Coulter

Whitman82 08-01-2005 06:17

Re: Religion thread
 
Some people in this world will kill another person simply because they are a different religion. Get rid of religion, and you extinguish almost all violence in the world. And you might say that some people just use it as an excuse, but, if you get rid of it, you don't have that problem.


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