Re: US election
 

If you want me to say it YES

if your so worried about rights its my right as an american to think this way. and its americans rights to vote for what they belive in. and i guess the people have spoken in 4 states.

Re: US election
 

W0W!
Sorry, didn't mean to spark this war....

PS: It was 11 states that voted and banned same sex marriage. Most people I know who are gay and seeking to marry just go across state lines to get married, if it's banned in their home state...

Re: US election
 

no it's not your fault..
it's mine.
I started it..
I was the one who started the big fuss...
[edit]
It's okay to think that marriage is between a man and a woman but it's not okay to force it on others..
just like thinking someone should die vs making someone die..
[/edit]
[edit2]
damn can't edit post to warn myself :(
[/edit2]

Re: US election
 

True. It's your right to think so, and it's your right to say what you're thinking without being penalized in any way - unless you insult or discrimnate others, which you didn't do.

And just to make it clear: When I was writing about religious fundamentalists, I wasn't referring to you. IMHO, being against gay marriage doesn't qualify one to be extremely conservative or even fundamentalist. I'm saying this just in case there was any doubt and to avoid misunderstandings. ;) Besides, I agree that the Church must not be forced to marry gay people.

What you posted now, however, is a very interesting point... it's what people voted for, and voting for or against something is their good right, as you said. Yes, the people have spoken indeed.

What I see here is a question of rights and values... which of the two is higher? Should democratic rights and privileges be above any value, or should there be some higher values and ideals which are immune even to the people's vote?

Think some years back: In the 1920's, what would people have voted for if they had had the chance to vote about blacks being treated equally or not? We can't know the outcome of such a fictional vote, but given the general opinion of that time, I dare say that a majority would have voted aginst equality between blacks & whites.

Now the prize question is: What's more important to defend in such a case? The will of the people against the ideal of equality or vice versa? Imagine a majority would vote for abolishing regular marriage - what would you say? "Ok, the people voted, so I accept that?" or "Wait a minute - I believe my right to choose a form of partnership I like and I believe in is more important, especially as it doesn't reduce other people's freedom of choice, unlike this vote against my marriage!"

Concerning the "Anti-Bushism" you mentioned, there really seems to be a kind of "hate cult" against Bush, meaning that it's no longer just personal opinion, but actually has become kind of a fashion to hate him... but doesn't the same apply for the hate against "hippie idiot" and "tree-hugger" Kerry? Wouldn't that be "Anti-Kerrianism" then?

I don't think it helps to let political differences turn into hate, and hating someone or something into any "-ism" or a fashion. To be honest, the only thing about the USA that really scares me is not Bush's victory or anything like that. It's something above all political directions, something that doesn't depend on left or right, red or blue, Republican or Democrat: It's the escalation of the debate. I don't see much room for reasonable compromises there, or much will to cooperate with the "other side". In the end, it's one country, and I'm sure that Conservatives and Democrats agree on more points than they disagree on. And for those points where they do disagree, I bet you could find a solution both can live with.

But I don't see that right now. I see both groups turning their backs on each other instead of moving towards each other to find a good position for all. Instead of differentiation, I see simplification. For me at least, the USA used to symbolize a modern democracy where everything seemed possible and people had the freedom to think what they want without being disrespected. And nowadays people start insulting and even hating each other; some don't dare to say whom they voted for because they fear being systematically isolated and discriminated by their own neighbours... this is what really scares me. I don't see much will to understand and respect each other's positions.

Re: US election
 

Congratulations, you have discovered the reason for living of our rule #7. :)
But I'm happy to see that political discussions remain possible here, even on touchy subjects. Maybe we will modify this rule someday. People seem to listen to each other, no open argument started so far - boy, we were close though :D
This is NOT something you see on every internet forum !!!

The topic seems to have shifted quite a bit tho, are you still speaking of the outcome of the US elections or is it all about gay marriage now ?

BTW I'd like Shephard to explain what makes him call Kerry a "tree-hugger" ? Frankly I don't see...

Re: US election
 

Today, when I read the entire new page that had accumulated here while I slept, I thought the same... you're right, we WERE close.

Indeed. As I said, I don't wanna discuss with guys I don't know... I'm interested in seeing what the BU folks think. But I wouldn't have dared to sustain such a discussion on any other forum, that's for sure. ;)

Re: US election
 

...crazy place to talk about politics :| . Here in Germany the US-election was very present in the media these days. Our cancellor Schroeder was not a big friend of the iraq-war and George Bush, for example, but think of our past- we are very careful with these things and the Greens are in our government.

What many people just didn´t want to see: church, family and "christian moral standards" are very important in the american society- and Bush stands for these kind of things, not Kerry. Many people say the days of the "old-60s-flower-power-people" are over.

Re: US election
 

And I frankly don't see the difference between the 2, apart from Kerry's position on the homosexuals and his "pro-choice" beliefs... Is that really enough to be put by the silly-happy-hippy side ?

I have the feeling that the essential implications of this election have been completely obfuscated by the american people themselves... or maybe I understood nothing :|

It's the land of the brave... and they are afraid...

Re: US election
 

This one hits the jackpot!

Re: US election
 

where's my prize ? :D