Re: US election
 

If you want me to say it YES

if your so worried about rights its my right as an american to think this way. and its americans rights to vote for what they belive in. and i guess the people have spoken in 4 states.

Re: US election
 

W0W!
Sorry, didn't mean to spark this war....

PS: It was 11 states that voted and banned same sex marriage. Most people I know who are gay and seeking to marry just go across state lines to get married, if it's banned in their home state...

Re: US election
 

no it's not your fault..
it's mine.
I started it..
I was the one who started the big fuss...
[edit]
It's okay to think that marriage is between a man and a woman but it's not okay to force it on others..
just like thinking someone should die vs making someone die..
[/edit]
[edit2]
damn can't edit post to warn myself :(
[/edit2]

Re: US election
 

True. It's your right to think so, and it's your right to say what you're thinking without being penalized in any way - unless you insult or discrimnate others, which you didn't do.

And just to make it clear: When I was writing about religious fundamentalists, I wasn't referring to you. IMHO, being against gay marriage doesn't qualify one to be extremely conservative or even fundamentalist. I'm saying this just in case there was any doubt and to avoid misunderstandings. ;) Besides, I agree that the Church must not be forced to marry gay people.

What you posted now, however, is a very interesting point... it's what people voted for, and voting for or against something is their good right, as you said. Yes, the people have spoken indeed.

What I see here is a question of rights and values... which of the two is higher? Should democratic rights and privileges be above any value, or should there be some higher values and ideals which are immune even to the people's vote?

Think some years back: In the 1920's, what would people have voted for if they had had the chance to vote about blacks being treated equally or not? We can't know the outcome of such a fictional vote, but given the general opinion of that time, I dare say that a majority would have voted aginst equality between blacks & whites.

Now the prize question is: What's more important to defend in such a case? The will of the people against the ideal of equality or vice versa? Imagine a majority would vote for abolishing regular marriage - what would you say? "Ok, the people voted, so I accept that?" or "Wait a minute - I believe my right to choose a form of partnership I like and I believe in is more important, especially as it doesn't reduce other people's freedom of choice, unlike this vote against my marriage!"

Concerning the "Anti-Bushism" you mentioned, there really seems to be a kind of "hate cult" against Bush, meaning that it's no longer just personal opinion, but actually has become kind of a fashion to hate him... but doesn't the same apply for the hate against "hippie idiot" and "tree-hugger" Kerry? Wouldn't that be "Anti-Kerrianism" then?

I don't think it helps to let political differences turn into hate, and hating someone or something into any "-ism" or a fashion. To be honest, the only thing about the USA that really scares me is not Bush's victory or anything like that. It's something above all political directions, something that doesn't depend on left or right, red or blue, Republican or Democrat: It's the escalation of the debate. I don't see much room for reasonable compromises there, or much will to cooperate with the "other side". In the end, it's one country, and I'm sure that Conservatives and Democrats agree on more points than they disagree on. And for those points where they do disagree, I bet you could find a solution both can live with.

But I don't see that right now. I see both groups turning their backs on each other instead of moving towards each other to find a good position for all. Instead of differentiation, I see simplification. For me at least, the USA used to symbolize a modern democracy where everything seemed possible and people had the freedom to think what they want without being disrespected. And nowadays people start insulting and even hating each other; some don't dare to say whom they voted for because they fear being systematically isolated and discriminated by their own neighbours... this is what really scares me. I don't see much will to understand and respect each other's positions.

Re: US election
 

Congratulations, you have discovered the reason for living of our rule #7. :)
But I'm happy to see that political discussions remain possible here, even on touchy subjects. Maybe we will modify this rule someday. People seem to listen to each other, no open argument started so far - boy, we were close though :D
This is NOT something you see on every internet forum !!!

The topic seems to have shifted quite a bit tho, are you still speaking of the outcome of the US elections or is it all about gay marriage now ?

BTW I'd like Shephard to explain what makes him call Kerry a "tree-hugger" ? Frankly I don't see...

Re: US election
 

Today, when I read the entire new page that had accumulated here while I slept, I thought the same... you're right, we WERE close.

Indeed. As I said, I don't wanna discuss with guys I don't know... I'm interested in seeing what the BU folks think. But I wouldn't have dared to sustain such a discussion on any other forum, that's for sure. ;)

Re: US election
 

...crazy place to talk about politics :| . Here in Germany the US-election was very present in the media these days. Our cancellor Schroeder was not a big friend of the iraq-war and George Bush, for example, but think of our past- we are very careful with these things and the Greens are in our government.

What many people just didn´t want to see: church, family and "christian moral standards" are very important in the american society- and Bush stands for these kind of things, not Kerry. Many people say the days of the "old-60s-flower-power-people" are over.

Re: US election
 

And I frankly don't see the difference between the 2, apart from Kerry's position on the homosexuals and his "pro-choice" beliefs... Is that really enough to be put by the silly-happy-hippy side ?

I have the feeling that the essential implications of this election have been completely obfuscated by the american people themselves... or maybe I understood nothing :|

It's the land of the brave... and they are afraid...

Re: US election
 

This one hits the jackpot!

Re: US election
 

where's my prize ? :D

Re: US election
 

It goes in my signature, to immortailize your post.

Re: US election
 

LOL, I was thinking about putting MarD's "glamorous and monumental" comment plus PMB's reply into my sig, but it was too big. :D Pierre is very quotable sometimes. :P

Re: US election
 

its sounds very logical to me aswell.. well done PMB..




where is the memorable quotes thread of PMB?

Re: US election
 

Heyyo,

LOL! Well, if you can't be famous, might as well be infamous. :P

Here's a quore from John Stewart I liked a lot, "New York, we're the city that never sleeps, cause we're scared to die."

Re: US election
 

I hope I'm not breaking any rules now. If so - please delete this post.
Look what did I get from some my colleague. :D

Re: US election
 

rofl... :D I suppose that's what Adrian meant with "Anti-Bushism"...

Re: US election
 

I may as well pop up my last year's rant of the year 8)

http://racc.bots-united.com/rantofth...en.darwin.html

*edit* yep, same as KWo's... looks like I haven't invented anything, lol :P

OK, I stop..

Re: US election
 

Gay marriage is not 'immoral'. It just does not conform to traditional Christian views. Which brings up the question, what exactly is marriage? It is not a government thing, it is a religious thing. I say we turn the marriage liscense into a civil union liscense, and allow churches to marry whoever they please.

Also, John Kerry was for the civil union liscense, also. He is for allowing gays to adopt children.

People reguard being gay as unnatural, but what is natural? I personally believe that being gay happens at a genetic level. These genes give us life, so is there anything more natural than that?

I think the main problem people have with gay marriage, which they probably won't say, is they think it is gross and can't stand the idea of a man kissing or having sex with another man.

Re: US election
 

I'm not big on the idea of gays adopting children. That kid would probably have a very difficult childhood, simply because of how he/she would be treated at school by the other kids.

Re: US election
 

we were pretty close weren't we :D

I personally think men with men is gross... but I still don't think it's right to restrict their rights because of that..

but I don't think I see any problem with women with women :D

Re: US election
 

Don't be fooled by the controled media silence, the election was rigged to high heaven.

Remember the unauditable vote machines? There's no valid reason for a paperless unverifyable machine other than to allow for a rigged election.

There's been plenty of reports of election fraud comming in, take a peek starting here ...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ <- run by a republican btw

Re: US election
 

I have come to the conclusion that the republican party cashed in on having those 11 states vote for a ban on gay marriage at the same time as the presidential election. This issue blindsided the democratic party and brought out many republican voters who otherwise wouldn't have voted...

Re: US election
 

damnit wrecks... i wish i would dissagree more with you... would be fun to have a discussion ;)

about gay marriage... it's funny how people struggle so hard to make life a little tougher for a few individuals... If people struggled just as hard to help the 3rd world, I'm sure we wouldn't have hunger in africa right now...

But then, thats how things are on this planet, i guess.

Re: US election
 

...if this one aint a memorable quote, then I don't know what you're looking for !

Re: US election
 

You get me to wish we had a "Memorable Quotes" board here on BU, where the concentrated wisdom of the intellectual BU elite is collected for our children and nephews... :P

@ botmeister: I totally agree with you on those stone-age voting machines... the same goes for that registration system. Whose vote counts, whose doesn't? If they had mandatory registration there anyway (not before an election, I mean in general), things could be as easy as in Europe: Every registered citizen in legal age gets a polling card some weeks before the election. Then, at the day of the election, you go to your polling station, show this polling card plus your ID card to prove that you are the entitled person, then they take your polling card, and you vote. Either with country-wide indentical voting sheets or by equally normed polling computers that show you what you voted before you can confirm.

It's beyond question that the USA are technically more than capable of making their polling system fool-proof and fraud-proof. The question is: Don't they want to change it for some reason or don't they even care?

What I meant by "undisputed" is that no matter how chaotic the election may have been, there is no doubt that Bush got more votes this time, and that even a correction of all "mistakes" or "accidents" would not change the outcome. I should have said that the outcome is undisputed, not the election itself.

@ sPlOrYgOn: Tsk, tsk, tsk... you naughty boy, you! ;)

@ Exilibur: I have to give back that compliment... your "global warming for more rainforests" post was the best troll I've ever seen. SO good, in fact, that I knew I had too little knowledge in that particular area to prove the opposite. You're damn good at debating, too.

@ sfx 1999: Yes, that's a good point. This might indeed be at least one reason why gay relations (married or not) are regarded as immoral. But it may be even more: I think many Conservatives refuse to realize that being gay is not a decision. They act as if gays had said: "You know what? We're tired of your boring morals and your Christian mumbo-jumbo - from now on, we'll have sex among each other just for the fun of it, and give a sh*t about your God." But it's not like that. Discovering that you're gay can't be a fun thing, I figure. And people don't choose to be gay... they just are that way. Nobody really knows how. Maybe it's the genes, maybe something else... Anyway, it's nothing you can change. It's nothing that can be avoided by getting a hold on yourself and clinging to some kind of morals. Telling a gay person to stop his wrongdoing and come back to "normal" morals is like telling a naturally blue-eyed person to kindly stop that bullshit and go back to brown eyes again.

Re: US election
 

I personally think that the e-voting machines should print out a ballot and you should drop it in a box (which is then counted). That way you can verify who the machine voted for, and it leaves a paper trail. It's the ease of E-voting that is extremely difficult to fraud.

Re: US election
 

actually if I were to launch a troll I'd say this has yet to be proven (as well as the opposite, by the way) :|

oops... my troll escaped

*edit*

whoa, and it's a big one :D

Re: US election
 

Being gay develops just like any other sexual deviance would, probably from some sort of childhood experience that causes something in the brain to end up being wired differently.

Re: US election
 

what i heard is that you are not just gay or straight.. you are alittle bit of both.. by chance some become more of one side..

in my next life i wanne become a good looking lesbien.. ;)

Re: US election
 

I think it's time to close this thread...;)

Re: US election
 

i for one have never voted... and low and behold i didnt vote this past election date either...

" u want the puppet on the right or the puppet on the left " -WAKING LIFE

i would just honestly worry about MORE PRESSING ISSUES

Re: US election
 

Perhaps you are right, Bush got more votes, but then again perhaps you are wrong - there's just no way to say for certain (or reasonably certain) is there?

Even if the outcome is not in dispute, the election results should be thown out until a reasonably tamper proof voting system in put in place - it's NOT hard to do, and there are many existing and proven examples to choose from.

The real tragedy is that so many people seemed to be perfectly content at having to participate in a seriously flawed election process.

Re: US election
 

I see your point, and I think not voting is a perfectly valid strategy considering what the choices were. If you are not content with any of the candidates, then you should not endorse any of them with your vote. Ballots should have a box marked [ ] None of the Above.

If enough Americans thought that no one was acceptable and did not vote, then Bush would not of been able to stand up on his pedistal and tell the world that he has a mandate backed up by the people. He'd look more like a fool instead of a real madman endorsed by millions.

Re: US election
 

I did a bit of research.
The American voting system is utterly weird o_O

In case 50.1% of the people in EVERY state would go for Bush and 49.9% of the people for Kerry, wouldn't Bush be elected with 100.0% of votes ?

Insane.

Re: US election
 

yes, that's right. but it has also some advantages, since each wannabe president has to take care of minorities that might ruin their win in some states. so it's not just that black and white :D

Re: US election
 

It's that damn electorial college. The are obligated to vote for whoever wins the popular vote of their state.

Your state gets so many electorial vote according to its population. This is determined by the census. I think we had one in 2000 last.

The only people we elect directly are probably Senators, Governers, and members of the House of Representatives.

Re: US election
 

...and that is called demagogism, my friend :)
an advantage ?

Re: US election
 

a voting system where the absolute number of votes is counted would be my favourite as well. but protection of minorities is also a part of almost all democracies, and this would be a possibility.

Re: US election
 

( ranting and raves...rants and raves...dies from vomiting )

[ x ] none of the above

Re: US election
 

i never have voted either.....and never will.
i will never "trust" any fuckin government no matter where i am. all of them are corrupted.

but turthfully if i had been living in the states at the time of this election....i would have voted for the first time just to get the biggest fuckin liar on this planet out of that ORAL office that Bill Clinton did such a nice job in.