.:: Bots United ::. - Time to make some decisions?

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.:: Bots United ::. (http://forums.bots-united.com/index.php)

- Obsession Software Ltd. (http://forums.bots-united.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26)

- - Time to make some decisions? (http://forums.bots-united.com/showthread.php?t=1353)

botman

08-06-2004 14:35

Re: Time to make some decisions?

...as does Brothers in Arms...

http://www.brothersinarmsgame.com/images/sight_lg.jpg

botman

Pierre-Marie Baty

08-06-2004 22:30

Re: Time to make some decisions?

yes!
THAT's an idea!
You have my vote for it!
w00t!

TruB	09-06-2004 10:00

Re: Time to make some decisions?

well yeah . the ironsights is in.. people like them.. realisms next step.. back on the active cs days.. i had thoughts to skip the target mark and go with feeling.. problem is.. its kinda enoying since you need to make mark on you screen or rely on the model that is not accurate for five cents..

iron sights however is accurate and you every body must/can rely one it.. im for it..

SoUlFaThEr

09-06-2004 13:11

Re: Time to make some decisions?

yeah ironsights is making it really realistic looking but its hardcore with many opponents in close combat cuz you cant see much......or how is that supposed to work?

the ironsights model or whatever is always taking up at least 40% of the screen so i would not advise doing this.......i dont like it........but thats me :)

and who am i?

Pierre-Marie Baty

09-06-2004 16:48

Re: Time to make some decisions?

There should be 2 modes
-close combat / assault (spray & pray), with a normal gun model
-distant range / ironsight, with that l33t view :P

I would imagine, for example, holding the shift key in order to raise the gun rail and line it up with your eye, that would be "ironsight" mode, and releasing the key would switch you back to normal mode (but without crosshair as well)

Cpl. Shrike

09-06-2004 18:20

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoUlFaThEr

Try looking through a real iron sight.
Yr vision gets narrowed to a mere 5deg angle.
Even less when you are trying to aim bulls eye.

Only in real you can switch from normal looking to iron sight real fast.
Which cannot in some hl mods.
Im for iron sights as long as they are fast switchable

TruB	09-06-2004 20:39

Re: Time to make some decisions?

as me.. but not with the shift key as PMB said.. i would like to use the right mouse buttom for it..

Brainz

09-06-2004 20:49

Re: Time to make some decisions?

The ironsgihts in the screenshot are shaderbased - a 2D image superimposed on your vision. An alternate version, which works better (no cross fading, true z-depth) is a model ironsights, where the gun model you see when non-sighted includes the sights as a detail, and that model moves up and into the centre. Thats how HI does it. (www.planethalflife.com/hostileintent/ - they've got a pretty good Ironsights FAQ too).

As for the time, think about real life - how long does it take to look down the sights of a rifle? Or a pistol? just moments. Can you fire whilst your viwepoint is changing? Yes you can. Thats how it should be modeled ingame in my opinion. Accuracy stays in the unsighted mode until the shot after you've got it sighted tho - or increases gradually.
I think RMB is the correct key for it, as a toggle, rather than a push to sight type thing. You should be able to move while covering a target. SWAT teams and similar do it all the time.

FrostyCoolSlug

10-06-2004 03:16

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Ironsights sounds like a good idea, but imo, it slows down the speed of the game, i'd prolly just end up drawing a crosshair on my monitor, and using that, the same as (most people) who play games with 'ironsight' do, or just make a small App which superimposes one onto the screen over the top of DirectX apps :p

Granted ironsights will add realism to the the game, and a lot of people will like it, but in some cases, people wont like it (i certainly wont) :/

sPlOrYgOn

10-06-2004 03:30

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Well we'll just make it so that when ironsights isn't on then the aim will be off..
How many people can hit a target far away holding a gun down at their waist?
realism is good but make sure to have ironsights come up quick.. that way people will still like the game...
also it'd be cool if hitting someone in the hands and arms would completely throw off their aim :D
but i don't think it'll be fun if their aim is off for the rest of the round (if we have rounds). maybe just for a few seconds..

TruB	10-06-2004 08:10

Re: Time to make some decisions?

i luved the way they did in call of duty.. and i have never heard any one complain about it..

FrostyCoolSlug

10-06-2004 14:24

Re: Time to make some decisions?

I've not played CoD yet, maybe when my incapacity benefit comes thru next week, i'll go out shopping :p

TruB	10-06-2004 16:44

Re: Time to make some decisions?

download the demo?

FrostyCoolSlug

10-06-2004 16:48

Re: Time to make some decisions?

downloading now :p

Brainz

11-06-2004 01:45

Re: Time to make some decisions?

I think something like 'ragdoll' physics should be implemented, even when the target is alive. A high caliber hit to the shoulder or arm, if not leathal, will spin them round, very much like I imagine it would IRL.

If you think people won't play the game with realism like this, add a server side variable to disable it. perhaps a binary type variable, 1+2+4+8 etc for each realism feature.

*Is there a name for this type of variable?*

Pierre-Marie Baty

11-06-2004 06:23

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Yes, what you mean is a bitmask variable. :)

TruB	11-06-2004 09:07

Re: Time to make some decisions?

actually.. if there is not an exploasion.. a bullet wont make you fly back like in the movies.. if you get shoot with a deadly bullet you would likely just fall on your knees..

but i think it would be cool.. maybe aim for cool animations where you use different animation all the time.. i mean.. when you run.. you dont run like the next guy.. different classes run different.. or something.. same for climbing and such..

sfx1999

12-06-2004 03:05

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre-Marie Baty

Yes, what you mean is a bitmask variable. :)

Yeah that is such a great idea. To bad it took me 2 years to figure out how adminmod knew which one's were on.

Here is an example (tested to work with http://nickciske.com/tools/binary.php). WARNING: may be endian dependant!

Code:

#include <iostream>

 #include <stdlib.h>

 

 #define BIT0 1

 #define BIT1 2

 #define BIT2 4

 #define BIT3 8

 #define BIT4 16

 #define BIT5 32

 #define BIT6 64

 #define BIT7 128

 

 using namespace std;

 

 int main(void)

 {

   char AsciiStorageArray[256];

   cout << "Insert the phrase to be translated: ";

   cin.getline(AsciiStorageArray, 255);

   cout << endl << "Streaming: ";

   

   int i;

   for (i=0; i < 256; i++)

   {

         if (AsciiStorageArray[i] == 0)

           break;

         if (AsciiStorageArray[i] & BIT7)

           cout << 1;

         else

           cout << 0;

         if (AsciiStorageArray[i] & BIT6)

           cout << 1;

         else

           cout << 0;

         if (AsciiStorageArray[i] & BIT5)

           cout << 1;

         else

           cout << 0;

         if (AsciiStorageArray[i] & BIT4)

           cout << 1;

         else

           cout << 0;

         if (AsciiStorageArray[i] & BIT3)

           cout << 1;

         else

           cout << 0;

         if (AsciiStorageArray[i] & BIT2)

           cout << 1;

         else

           cout << 0;

         if (AsciiStorageArray[i] & BIT1)

           cout << 1;

         else

           cout << 0;

         if (AsciiStorageArray[i] & BIT0)

           cout << 1;

         else

           cout << 0;

         cout << " ";

   }

   

   cout << endl << "Thank you and have a very safe day" << endl;

   

   system("PAUSE");        

   return 0;

 }

Hooray for bit manipulation!

sPlOrYgOn

12-06-2004 03:10

Re: Time to make some decisions?

whats stdlib.h included for?

Pierre-Marie Baty

12-06-2004 04:00

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruB

actually.. if there is not an exploasion.. a bullet wont make you fly back like in the movies.. if you get shoot with a deadly bullet you would likely just fall on your knees..

What I was referring to was this
http://www.temple.edu/photo/photogra...pa/RCapa1D.jpg
(honor to the memory of Frederico Garcia from the International Militias against the fascists in the Spanish civil war. Photo (c) Robert Capa)

Bullets caught on some point of your body make this part flinch. If you catched a bullet in your right arm, your right arm would flinch back. Ragdolls physics are needed for that.

@SFX: instead of using this

Code:

#define BIT0 1

#define BIT1 2

#define BIT2 4

#define BIT3 8

#define BIT4 16

#define BIT5 32

#define BIT6 64

#define BIT7 128

you can do

Code:

#define BIT0 (1 << 0)

#define BIT1 (1 << 1)

#define BIT2 (1 << 2)

#define BIT3 (1 << 3)

#define BIT4 (1 << 4)

#define BIT5 (1 << 5)

#define BIT6 (1 << 6)

#define BIT7 (1 << 7)

it's easier :)

FrostyCoolSlug

12-06-2004 04:17

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruB

maybe, because we are using ragdoll physics, we could create a 'basic' animation for running, and vary footsteps length, those lengths effect how the player moves, but, all players should keep the same average speed.

The weight of what your carrying should effect your speed (and maybe stamina), cause irl, you dont see people running with rocket launchers and full rockets running at the pace of someone with a pistol ;)

Something else i've noticed, everyone seems to assume that this will be a 'class' based game.. Although classes are nice, they dont allow for much flexibility.

I dont know how many of you played firearms for half-life, but they had an interesting system:

Each player starts with 23 points, each gun and piece of equiptment costs a certain ammount of points, and its up to the player to decide what was best, this way, theres no real need to worry about 'balancing' the classes, the player decides what setup is best for him (with the possibility to save it), and can play with that. The weight of the stuff they are carrying should depend on what stuff they have selected, so if they spent all 23 points (I'm using that as an example), they wouldnt be able to move at the same speed as someone who spent 1 point.

I feel this way adds for customisation, you wont have 50 people who look the same because they decide 'assault' is the best class, everyone will have a preferance, and if for whatever reason, they dont like it, they can change it at will :)

Brainz

12-06-2004 16:50

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre-Marie Baty

What I was referring to was this

Bullets caught on some point of your body make this part flinch. If you catched a bullet in your right arm, your right arm would flinch back. Ragdolls physics are needed for that.

Well, I thought it was me talking about that... but that is exactly what I mean.

sfx1999

12-06-2004 18:25

Re: Time to make some decisions?

PMB it may be easier, but it is not as fast. It has to run a bitshift every time it sees BIT0, or BIT1. I tried to make it run as fast as it could with my limited programming knowledge.

sPlOrYgOn: stdlib.h was included by default for new projects, and I did not know if system("PAUSE") needed it or not.

sPlOrYgOn

12-06-2004 18:38

Re: Time to make some decisions?

nm sfx I figured it out..
in windows it doesn't need to be included if iostream is included
but on linux it is needed for system()

Brainz

13-06-2004 05:14

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostyCoolSlug

I dont know how many of you played firearms for half-life, but they had an interesting system:

Each player starts with 23 points, each gun and piece of equiptment costs a certain ammount of points, and its up to the player to decide what was best, this way, theres no real need to worry about 'balancing' the classes, the player decides what setup is best for him (with the possibility to save it), and can play with that. The weight of the stuff they are carrying should depend on what stuff they have selected, so if they spent all 23 points (I'm using that as an example), they wouldnt be able to move at the same speed as someone who spent 1 point.

I feel this way adds for customisation, you wont have 50 people who look the same because they decide 'assault' is the best class, everyone will have a preferance, and if for whatever reason, they dont like it, they can change it at will :)

This I like. I did try FA briefly, but lost it when I had HD problems. Not reinstalled it since.

Pierre-Marie Baty

13-06-2004 22:09

Re: Time to make some decisions?

The Specialists works like this too. I think it's the way to go.

@sfx1999: yes it is as fast, because (1 << n) are constants, and thus are translated into their right value by the preprocessor. Once the compiler parses it, the result is exactly the same in both ways.

botmeister

14-06-2004 05:48

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Quote:

Each player starts with 23 points, each gun and piece of equiptment costs a certain ammount of points, and its up to the player to decide what was best, this way, theres no real need to worry about 'balancing' the classes, the player decides what setup is best for him (with the possibility to save it), and can play with that. The weight of the stuff they are carrying should depend on what stuff they have selected, so if they spent all 23 points (I'm using that as an example), they wouldnt be able to move at the same speed as someone who spent 1 point.

I like this idea too. The game Mechwarrior had this type of system, and there was lots of interesting strategy in selecting the right set of weapon systems and ammo amounts to carry. The more weapons and ammo, the more slowly you moved (you'd also overheat faster), but you had more firepower. What kinds of weapon/ammor/armor (etc) combinations you selected determined how you played the round.

If we stick with a fast and fun game (which I think we all agree we should do), too much tinkering will slow down the game, so I'd say players should be able to save their favorite config's and be able select and recall a specific configuration to arm up very quicky.

I remember seeing a thread asking if bots are still needed because fast internet connections make on line play more common. If there's enough strategy in the game then playing with bots should increase. For example, off line players could spent lots of time tinkering with various weapon config's and using bots to test and train to perfection before going on line.

TruB	14-06-2004 17:45

Re: Time to make some decisions?

MadMechwarrior?

botmeister

14-06-2004 23:32

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruB

MadMechwarrior?

Here's the link to the game. The demo version allows you to fully customize your "mechs" before going into battle so you can have a look at it for free.

http://www.microsoft.com/games/mechwarrior4/

Brainz

15-06-2004 05:02

Re: Time to make some decisions?

I've played previous versions of MW (2&3), but not 4... My comp was never up to it.

However, Opera, a HL mod orinally (but now on UT2004) had something like what you're describing. It was a points based system, but it had an extrenal app that let you set up preset 'classes'. A default set was provided, but there was space for more to be added. It also had the option of changing weapons in game. Maybe this sort of thing should be added, with the option of saving custom loadouts to a reservation without leaving the game using, for eg, a console command.

Default classes should be TFC style: Scout, Sniper, Assault, HWguy, Engineer, Pyro, Spy. Of course, the available weapons will cause this to be modified.

FrostyCoolSlug

16-07-2004 05:50

Re: Time to make some decisions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by botmeister

Naturally, Firearms had an option to do this, it was slightly more complex though, you had to go rummaging through your Half-Life directory, and edit some files..

Although i belive being forced to do this 'in game' can take a lot of time, maybe an external program to do this would be useful, and in game, a way to 'temporarily' store weapons buying, with an option somewhere to perminantly save it. This way, they dont have to waste time organising weapons when they could be killing shit ;)

Also, yes. There should be bots. This is bots united ffs ;) Its nice if new players to a game get some experiance in single player before they venture into the multiplayer world.. (Maybe do something like that awful game Americas army, you have to go through 'boot camp training' before you can play as certain classes online.. This gives users the oppertunity to get to know the game before they get their asses whipped by novice players.

SoUlFaThEr

16-07-2004 07:12

Re: Time to make some decisions?

AA is not awful.....although im no friggin patriot i was actually positively shocked by this game developed by soldiers who should be shooting. its very exact

FrostyCoolSlug

16-07-2004 18:58

Re: Time to make some decisions?

i game concept isnt too bad, BUT, i couldnt get the damn thing to run faster than 4FPS, even though UT2k4 with full graphics at the highest possible res runs at 82 :/

i hate unplayable games :/

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