Re: Religion thread
 

PMB: You support the downfall of organized government (Anarchist), therefore you don't believe in the existance of god (Atheist)?
Or are you trying to start a Government vs. Religion argument?

Re: Religion thread
 

well I'm christian :)

Re: Religion thread
 

I don't believe in any gods, hence atheist.

but I'm not sure if the GNU philosophy is a "religion" as I agree with most of it. Well I still have M$ Windows, HL1 and NVidia's proprietary driver for GNU/Linux installed on my computer so I'm not a totally GNUisance :)

edit:
here is a funny comparation of different religions (no offense to anyone!):
http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/shit-happens.html

Re: Religion thread
 

@dead bwoy: the motto of the anarchists is "no god, no master"... I just wanted to see how people would react to it :)

Re: Religion thread
 

i thought a true anarchist also does not tolerate ANY master, meaning goverment and such... hail ur president PMB :P

Re: Religion thread
 

interesting topic :)

Personally i define religion as a belief in a higher good.

A higher good is an over-human ethic disticintion between right and wrong.

What I mean here is that right or wrong is not based on beliefs and individual viewpoints, but in a truth that is unquestionable.

for example a higher truth in the old part of the bible is the 10 commandments, while jesus said something about to love each other and forgiveness.

So in that regard, believing in a religion would be to believe in some truths regarding ethics and fairness.

I believe that opinions are created in a society as a 'product' of the society. In that way our opinions are shaped by our experience and life so far. In that sense, thruths that seem to be just and fair could be unimaginable in another being's mind. (That's kinda like Marx, if it reminded anybody of something)

As an international semi-capitalistic society, a lot of citizens in this world (especially western) are born and raised with values that makes the foundations of the opinions of these human beings, and in that sense me we will all agree on some of the cornerstones of human societies (don't kill), and we might also agree about some basic capitalistic values (the market and economy), and in the same way agree more or less about some common ethical values, that are agreed upon as unquestionable. (basically those things that we call right and wrong)

So because I believe that our sense of just and fairness is created in the society, I don't believe in religion... To answer the question: I'm an atheist.

To be honest to myself, I need to confess that those viewpoints are trapped in their own logic, since they are just the sum of my experience with life so far.
Are they right or wrong?.. I don't think so.

At least it's only my personal opinion, so I anybody feels like taking offence then please don't bother, because it isn't meant to provoke :)

stefanhendriks, I've actually thought about pretty much the same thing... As I see it, assuming that human beings have a free will, it actually disproves logic. (which makes everything a bit silly, since the very same argument wouldn't be valid without logic).
So instead I tend to believe it disproves a unified theory about the universe.

It was Aristoteles who talked about the unmoved mover... He saw him as a god sitting somewhere wondering about his creation. For Platon this god was the idea behind logic, and in that sense he was 'logic', nothing more, nothing less. Platon and Aristoteles believe btw in a higher thruth, both believing that by logic we could realize this thruth, and conclude what was right and what was wrong. (which I've had some furious fight with my philosophy teacher about ;))

Re: Religion thread
 

Re: Religion thread
 

actually i find "right or wrong" too subjective. As for one person "right" may for another person be "wrong". Therefor the whole logic ever build on those terms, is doomed to fall apart.

unless, our logic, which is driven by our brains, which is based upon chemical reactions... are (as the latest said, chemical reactions.....) ACTION->REACTION

so, eventually , you think you have free will? You really think so?.... REALLY? ;)

Re: Religion thread
 

That right and wrong is subjective, is kinda what i tried to say with the post up above, so I agree with that...

I tend to assume that I have a free will, because if I don't have a free will, I obvioulsy would assume it anyway, so it doesn't make a lot of sense not doing so :D

And if I don't have a free will, then it doesn't really matter, I guess.

Re: Religion thread
 

Action >> Reaction it does not matter.

Humans and Primates maybee even lower have free will.
Even if its cause by a reaction. To each reaction there are several reactions.
It's upto the individual to choose a reaction (or even stay passive, which is also a reaction).

If some how we all controlled from above ....
Implying no free will, well up to today there is no evedenice that we (earthlings) are being controlled. Even if we are controlled, but then again we don't know it.
If you don't know you are controlled you make a free chooice depending on external and previous ecountered actions.

If some feels or says there is no free will then one could just as well put him self 6 feet under. Or enjoy the fact your a marrionet.


Oh btw im a non believer as far as religion goes.
But i do believe in everything that IS.
Im aslo not saying im an atheist for that matter I don't know what i am or in which box you can put me.