Ernst Zundel deported from Canada to Germany - WTF?

[Leagle]

Originally Posted by botmeister

I hear there's HUGE trial going on in France about some child abuse ring.

Perhaps, I'm not down with the news anymore, but it could be the Belgian one, which has been ongoing for several years now. I think it stretched into France as well.

I think I'll just let pmb talk for me here, it's easier.

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

botmeister is right. 60 people in France are put on trial for pedophilia on one or two dozen children, mostly their own children or relatives. They were "sharing" them among different families of abusers. That's the sickest affair we've seen in ages. The facts happened in Angers, a town not very far from where I live.

[@$3.1415rin]

the german media havnt covered that event that much, but you can find it without problems. maybe the event that there are more than 5 million ppl without work currently in germany seems to be more important ...

botmeister, you were asking if the german ppl are afraid of speaking freely, and I can assure you, they aren't. And insulting groups of ppl, lying, "volksverhetzung" etc are crimes in other states as well, and I guess we agree that this is some sort of criminal activity.
In my opinion it's ok that denial of the holocaust is a crime, since we cannot allow or encourage propaganda which is surely based on wrong facts. We had pretty bad experiences with propaganda here, so that's the way to go I think. and beside that, if germany wouldnt handle it that way, I guess that would as well be a big topic in other countries medias, just remember the CNN coverage on the elections in saxony where a right wing party got more than 5% and therefore got into the state parliament.

and about talking about the events from 33-45 ( and don't forget it began already years earlier ) isn't that impossible as pierre wrote. ok, you cannot just talk about it in the row in a supermarket but that's hardly the location to talk about it. dunno about the discussions about the french collaboration with the nazis, how much that is discussed in france, and if you have certain holidays to remember their victims. but talking about those events, the current way our society handles it, with friends, with my parents or grandparents and in school is possible and I guess it's everybodies duty to do this, to be able to discuss and convince all those extreme right wing ppl. ok, that sounds a bit too idealistic, but we have to be aware of those problems in the past to avoid similar developments in the future. ( and not just burrying problems in the past like some current president want to ) I have to admit that you sometimes get tired of another documentation on TV, another movie in the cinemas and alone the fact that you are regarded as far-far-far-far-far-right extremist when having a german flag in your private garden. But ignoring aint the way to go neither.

I hope botmeister isnt thinking of germany of a nonfree speech wannabedemocracy

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

Asp is right about German media hardly covering the Zundel case. Anyway I think that the fishier part of this case is indeed the "kangaroo court" in Canada in all its suspicious circumstances and not so much the fact that denying the holocaust is a crime in Germany.

The bigger story behind all this is what Pierre mentioned, the dogmas of political correctness, which lead to nothing but screaming hysteria.

The holocaust topic is a sensitive one in Germany, although you can discuss it pretty freely in a private atmosphere. However, if you are a politician or in any other way a person of public interest, it can be enough to kill you politically if someone says that a friend of a cousin of his friend had heard that some colleague from his company had heard that someone had said that some other guy had said that he had heard rumours about you denying the holocaust. Guillotine down, case closed.

Right now, the right to demonstrate is being narrowed in view of the possibilty that neo-nazis might hold a demonstration right next to Berlin's holocaust monument. Freedom of speech is on the verge of being attacked, too. We live in dangerous times when that hyteria I mentioned can win over the remaining bits of reason and open debate.

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

dunno about the discussions about the french collaboration with the nazis, how much that is discussed in france, and if you have certain holidays to remember their victims

for this, the French have been utter cowards. France woke up at the Liberation as if every frenchman was a proud member of the Resistance. The top heads in the Vichy government have been put to trial and sanctioned, but NONE of the usual daily collabos assumed their past. There was also antisemitism in France in the 30's (like just about everywhere else in Europe, take Poland f.ex.) and since the act of collaborating only consists in trying to get along for the better with the occupying force, eventually giving out the name of one or two jew in one's neighbourhood, it was some very silent, underhand, sneaky business. Nothing to see like actively supporting a party and being a militant - such things you cannot hide. But hardly anybody knew that his neighbour was a collabo... except for the most obvious ones. These guys usually had trouble at the Liberation, their wives and the women that were collaborating with the nazis got their hair shaved so that everybody could recognize them, and other vengeful acts took place. But I am pretty certain that a good half of the most active people seeking revenge on the collabos did it just because they were collabos themselves and they wanted to bury their past ASAP.

Now the young generations speak absolutely freely of the Resistance and the collaboration, just anywhere and with anybody, be it in a bar with unknown folks (which I'd bet that's where it happens the most), and almost everybody is pretty much aware of what really happened, however that was NOT the case with our grandfathers. The taboo was the rule then, and those who talked about it were not saying it outloud. I still learn a lot of things each time I listen to my grandfather talking about the occupation. I have no big problem understanding the fascination a well-disciplined army like the Wehrmacht could have had on some frenchmen. The one of my grandfathers who's dead used to say he was always impressed by their discipline.

However, I was not talking of "freedom of speech" in the sense where it's constrained by the law, but rather of taboos caused by feelings of guilt. My godfather married a german woman who told me once that such discussions were not easy to have among nationals in Germany.

Stupidly enough we do not have any holiday for the victims of the nazism, which is a shame but IMO also a political choice: 80% of the Resistance were communists.

[TruB]

Originally Posted by @$3.1415rin

I dont think that's something to make jokes about

i really dont have clue what it is..

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Holocaust

[botmeister]

@$3.1415rin wrote:

I hope botmeister isnt thinking of germany of a nonfree speech wannabedemocracy

What comes to mind that I think we all can relate to, is the experience we had over at Nukebox. It was OK to say just about anything you wanted to say, but the moment you said anything about the insanity, the lies, and the desceptions of the Iraq invasion, suddenly the aux came down (pun intended). I got banned from Nukebox twice. Yet if you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that almost everything I wrote about was the truth.

So having said that, no I definitely, absolutely, positively do not view Germany as a bastion of free speech, in fact I'm debating if it is worse than Canada or not, now that I've seen the results of the Zundel "kangaroo trial".

The concept of a "democracy", well that's another topic where my views took a looog time to form. Don't worry I'm not a communist, a facists or a right wing nut job (and so on). I guess what I'm saying is that to paint "democracy" in a negative light is another one of those taboo subjects, but Look at the USA, it was supposed to be the pinicle of democracy and freedom, yet it more resembles a fascist state than anything else (all 14 points).

TrueB wrote:

i really dont have clue what it is..

I assume you are making a very important and valid point, or perhaps I am being way too clever for my own good and am seeing brilliance where none exists

[botmeister]

PMB wrote:

That's the sickest affair we've seen in ages.

It is so sick, it is unbelievable. The last similar trial in France was unreal and very complicated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3859115.stm

There are a lot of unbelievabley sick things going on in the world. I have seen images of the affects of the Iraq war that would make many people throw up. Unfortunately, no one is going to jail over these horrific crimes.

I hear Donald "Runsfeld" cancelled a trip to germany out of fear of being arrested for war crimes. A group in Canada tried to have Bush arrested when that piece of s#*t stepped on Canadian soil.

[Leagle]

Originally Posted by botmeister

What comes to mind that I think we all can relate to, is the experience we had over at Nukebox. It was OK to say just about anything you wanted to say, but the moment you said anything about the insanity, the lies, and the desceptions of the Iraq invasion, suddenly the aux came down (pun intended). I got banned from Nukebox twice. Yet if you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that almost everything I wrote about was the truth.

Ah yes, auxois.9_9 He started a fight with me for once for explaining about the diferences in costs of labour between the US and Iraq. He found it threatening.