Remove AIM_OFFSET?

[sPlOrYgOn]

Well I've been playing around with the aim_offset settings and I'm starting to think we should just take it out...
Why?
Because I find AIM_OFFSET to be very unhumanlike...
instead I'm thinking the way humans miss while firing is because they haven't pointed their cursor completely on target yet..
I've watched my baby brother play..
his aim is incredibly accurate... after a second of aiming...
I'm thinking of slowing down the aiming of lower skill level bots..
currently I've stoped them from reaiming for a longer time.. but it just seems too unrealistic..
I've built a beta dll for all of you to test..

Please post your opinion on the matter..
http://www.mapzap.org/podbot/podbotAIM.zip

[g4s]

I'm thinking of slowing down the aiming of lower skill level bots.

in real game, nubs don't aim like that, many of them just keep firing and try to hide from enemies. only skill players would take a while to aim and then shoot.

so personally I think inaccurate aiming (higher aim offset) is kinda realistic.

and another thing, bots always crounch and move left/right while shooting. I don't see this very often in real game, but many real players run left/right while shooting.

[biohazerd87]

i think of removing AIM_OFFSET but adding another setting like FIRE_DELAY time like turn speed but for firing

[KWo]

This pool can't be disinterested, because all people at this forum play in CS very long time, so their skill is high. But there are many users-beginers with low skill (low aim too) - so for them who should vote in this pool? I'm agree with g4s. If somebody don't need bots with skill lower than 100, he simply will use bot (100). Beginers can use bot with lower skill (and lower aim, too). All of them are happy now. But when You remove this function - the problem is for beginers bot with good aim if is closer to player - it kill the player by headshoot (and this is much more frustrate for beginers). In oder hand on aim map big AIM gives the effect too much unrealistic (bots with bad AIM can hit nothing). If there is a possibility to change this aim of bots for beginers - they can play and they can incrase they-own skill and aim. The problem is still - how to prepare this AIM for every group (0-19, 20-39..etc). I think this would be better if we could write min_aim and max_aim for each group, because now for exmple AIM of bots (80) is the same like aim of bots (99). For this people liking bot with super AIM PMB wrote his super BOTAIM plugin, unfortunaly not working with current release. :'( The job direction should be rather concentrated how to move back to work this great BOTAIM plugin to work with podbot_mm.dll . I noticed this few weeks ago some trouble with it.
In this case all people (podbot users) will be happy. It's my opinion.
If You cut this AIM some of them can leave this bot as too hard...

[sPlOrYgOn]

KWo you didn't read this at all...
I didn't say I was going to make all the bots have perfect aim and hs you all the time...

taking out AIM_OFFSET so I can slow down their aiming..
if you're running left and right a lower skilled bot cannot keep up with you...
only higher skilled bots.
that is what I meant..

[KWo]

OK - look at this example:

You go to some dark room, and I don't see some bot camping in the corner. OK - it will take You at his target (by AIM) in longer time - for example 2s, but after this 2s it will kill You by a headshot by one shot. This will be very frustrate for beginers. If there is some AIM_OFFSET it have keep fire long time to kill You. This time is for You sufficient for Your reaction to shoot it back. Is this clear now?

[EDIT]

For solving Your problem with AIM_OFFSET You don't need remove it from the code. Simply use this botskill.cfg and leave this AIM_OFFSET like it was until now.

===============================


# In this File you can tweak some of the POD-Bot
# Skill Settings
# As usual the "#" char starts a comment line
# NOTE: If you have inhumanturns turned on in
# podbot.cfg the turnspeeds here will be overridden

# MIN/MAX_DELAY specifies the Reaction Time in Seconds
# MIN/MAX_TURNSPEED is the number of Degrees allowed to turn
# in 1 Frame
# AIM_OFFS_X/Y/Z are the offsets for aiming (note that HL uses
# the lefthanded coordinate system where Z is the Up Direction)
# HEADSHOT_ALLOW specifies (in percent) the probability of aiming
# at the Head. This doesn't mean he actually fires at your head
# but he is allowed to do so.
# HEAR_SHOOTHRU specifies (in percent) the probability of shooting
# through Obstacles if the Bot has heard someone, has a weapon to do
# so and has this enemy in his viewing cone.
# SEEN_SHOOTHRU specifies (in percent) the probability of shooting
# through Obstacles if the Bot has seen this enemy before, has a weapon
# to do so and this enemy is still in his viewing cone.

# The order is from the Worst Bots to the Best. DON'T CHANGE THE
# ORDER IN THIS FILE UNLESS YOU WANT TO EXPERIENCE WEIRD THINGS!

# Settings for Bots Skill 0-19
MIN_DELAY 0.80
MAX_DELAY 1.00
MIN_TURNSPEED 2.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 3.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 0
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 0
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 0

# Settings for Bots Skill 20-39
MIN_DELAY 0.60
MAX_DELAY 0.80
MIN_TURNSPEED 3.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 4.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 10
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 0
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 0

# Settings for Bots Skill 40-59
MIN_DELAY 0.40
MAX_DELAY 0.60
MIN_TURNSPEED 4.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 6.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 30
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 0
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 50

# Settings for Bots Skill 60-79
MIN_DELAY 0.20
MAX_DELAY 0.40
MIN_TURNSPEED 6.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 8.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 50
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 30
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 80

# Settings for Bots Skill 80-99
MIN_DELAY 0.10
MAX_DELAY 0.20
MIN_TURNSPEED 8.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 10.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 80
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 50
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 100

# Settings for Bots Skill 100
MIN_DELAY 0.00
MAX_DELAY 0.10
MIN_TURNSPEED 10.0
MAX_TURNSPEED 12.0
AIM_OFFS_X 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Y 0.0
AIM_OFFS_Z 0.0
HEADSHOT_ALLOW 100
HEAR_SHOOTTHRU 100
SEEN_SHOOTTHRU 100

===============================

[/EDIT]

[EDIT2]

Originally Posted by sPlOrYgOn

if you're running left and right a lower skilled bot cannot keep up with you...
only higher skilled bots.

Than simply use bots with higher skill...
Or do in this way:

AIM_OFFSET_X_MIN
AIM_OFFSET_X_MAX
AIM_OFFSET_Y_MIN
AIM_OFFSET_Y_MAX
AIM_OFFSET_Z_MIN
AIM_OFFSET_Z_MAX

for all skill ranges - in this case the change of skill and AIM between for example BOT (80) and BOT (99) will be continuous (now it's jumping).

[/EDIT2]

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

Ideally AIM_OFFSET should be removed, for the very reason sPlOrYgOn says, because it is not a human-like way of aiming.

The challenge after that, is to build a sufficiently credible and sufficiently challenging aiming algorithm that doesn't rely on random offsets. It's possible: Michael Booth did it in the official CS bot.

[KWo]

Originally Posted by Pierre-Marie Baty

Ideally AIM_OFFSET should be removed, for the very reason sPlOrYgOn says, because it is not a human-like way of aiming.

OK - I'm agree with You - this is not 100% human-like, but for this moment we have nothing for replacement. This algorithm You said above - first must to be good described (at least like the description of this A* pathfinder made - if I remember good - by aspirin) , next implemented, next released in some beta and tested and at the end released in some official version. But:
1. Is this algorithm realy known so good by coders?
2. Is sPlOrYgOn actually ready to implement it?
3. If 2 is not - have You a time to help him (with all needed by him explanation and maybe with preparing some parts of code by You)?

The change from AIM_OFFSET to this new algorithm should be continuous - don't remove this AIM_OFFSET from actual code until this new algorithm will be 100% OK. For this new algorithm sPlOrYgOn can add a new cvar (ignoring AIM_OFFSET and use for tests new algorithm - if this cvar is on). After AIM_OFFSET and this cvar should be removed.
Is this a good solution now?

IMHO PMB's botaim is close to what we want. But as stated above, it has qust too perfect aiming for longer ranges.. I think (if it is possible) implementing PMB's botaim into our bot and then adding some offset depending (and maybe + a LITTLE bit randomizated) on the current distance to the aimed enemy. This would be a good aiming algorithm after all IMHO....

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

This sounds like a nice idea to me.

However, KWo has a good point in saying that aim_offset shouldn't be taken out before there's something good (or preferably better, that is) to replace it.
Now the magical question is if and how the botaim code can be included in the podbot code...