Bots get stuck at top of ladder

[KWo]

If the direction of path from top ladder wp to next wp is left or right (no forward or back) bots get stuck at this top ladder wp. I made 2 screenshots from map de_train . Tested with latest beta sPlOrYgOn release and R2.1 ; pwf created 26.04.04 8:02 by SoUlFaThEr - for sure should be OK; CS1.5. I tryied to change the ladder wp on top of the ladder - if I do this wp a little bit higher - bot don't get stuck, but there is many maps and I don't like all re-waypoint with this ladder problem. On many maps this is impossible,too, because the ladder sometimes are finished at the top exactly at the floor level (floor up of the ladder) - so I can't put wp higher.:'(

[Huntkillaz]

yeah i have a few problems with ladders too...the thing is sometimes making funny connections or using a funny stratergy for ladders might work better with bot's...

on a map de_snipe_it5 terroists have a tower ladder thats ends shorter than the floor so i have to make a jump to the top
ct tower ladder is slightly longer than the floor and but i'm still trying to work arouund it


hey if any of u super pro wp'rs can give a breif tutorial on ladder trick it wuld be nice

[biohazerd87]

I will I am well I shouldn't brag but hey soulfather move over here I come. Give me about an hour and I will have one ready

[biohazerd87]

Ok lets start off with the basic placement. I am a visual Person so there are lots of pictures.

PLACEMENT- BOTTOM
The placement at the bottom of the ladder is usually pretty simple. The best way I have found is to place it as low as you can. But you have to actually be "climbing" the ladder or on it. The best way to get this low is to look straight at the ladder and walk into it, but don't look up because you will start climbing the ladder.
PICTURE FOR LADDER PLACEMENT-BOTTOM


PLACEMENT-TOP
This ladder waypoint is either very easy or very difficult to place depending on where the ladder is leading. Lets start simple first. Again you want this waypoint as high as possible on the ladder but you still want to be on the ladder. The best way to do this is to walk into the ladder from the top with out looking down this way you get "hooked" onto the ladder with out climbing down the ladder to much here is a picture for this one.
PICTURE FOR LADDER PLACEMENT-TOP


PLACEMENT-XTRAS
If you can't place this one you shouldn't ever try to do your own waypoints. (crude but true). Now you might be asking "Biohazerd what do I do if the ladder is really long?" Well all you gotta do is place a waypoint or two somewhere between the bottom waypoint and the top waypoint. They should be placed slightly farther apart than Normal waypoints to Normal waypoints. NOTE TO USER THIS WOULD REQUIRE YOU TO BE ON THE LADDER.
But here is a picture just to show you.

PICTURE FOR LADDER PLACEMENT-XTRAS


PLACEMENT OF REALLY HARD AND ANNOYING WAYPOINTS
This is where it begins to get a little harder but if you read well and try hard anyone can do it. (does that sound cheesey?) Lets say you have a problem such as this...(see pic)

And right about now it will hit you! "How will the bot get from point A to point B" is what you might be asking. Well it's rather simple if you use some advanced features of the waypoint code (props to soulfather and everyone else involved). Start by using the little ledge on the side by placing a few waypoints on it. Like so... (pic)

and somewhere about now you should be asking, But won't the bot still try to walk from point A to point B and fall? I must point out you are quick. Here is how we fix it. First delete the all the Pathwaypoints from all 4 waypoints.
Then link each one to only the next closest. IE A-B-C-D not A-C or A-D that will defeat the purpose. This way the bot goes only where it can. See pic for details...


PLACEMENT OF LADDERWAYPOINTS IF SOMETHING BIG OR A WALL BLOCKS THE WAY

Lets start off with the picture...


Now how would the bot get from point A to point B when point C (the wall) is blocking the way. Well simple, just make the way point higher on the ladder. By doing this the bot is more likely to climb higher on the ladder and then run off. This allows the bot to clear point C. View picture...


MORE HELP WITH REGULAR PLACEMENT OF WAYPOINTS

Ok again lets start with the picture...

although the waypoint placement would work but if you notice the angle of the pathwaypoint isn't level. This will make the bot try to walk forward before reaching the top of the ladder. by placing it like the picture below you should get better results.



Thats it for now and remember this is what "I" have found works best. You may have a better tactic and it may work better. This is only a QUICK overview of waypoints nothing dramatic if you would like the entire thing just ask me

[Huntkillaz]

aye,nice but my problem resides in the fact that my bottom ladder wp sits nicely on the ladder. i sqaure myself to the ladder crouch n walk into it till i just get hooked, but the bots can't climb the ladder in 1st go if i place it slightly higher they hacve problems ...i dunno what i'm doing wrong

[biohazerd87]

Originally Posted by Huntkillaz

aye,nice but my problem resides in the fact that my bottom ladder wp sits nicely on the ladder. i sqaure myself to the ladder crouch n walk into it till i just get hooked, but the bots can't climb the ladder in 1st go if i place it slightly higher they hacve problems ...i dunno what i'm doing wrong

Unfortuantly you will have to be more spacific do you mean they won't even climb the ladder at all or are they falling off or what. And which ladder might this be

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

Nice tut, biohazerd! I agree in most points. Please allow me to add that in the first example for a difficult ladder setting (the A-B-C-D thingy) one problem could arise: A (the first normal WP behind the top of the ladder) might be too close to the upper ladder WP. This could result in bots thinking they had reached this WP A (remember there is a hardcoded tolerance for bots) as soon as they're on top of the ladder. So they could turn back to walk to B before stepping up the floor.
The solution to this is easy: If it occurs (or, if you have some experience under your belt and see that it's likely to occur), turn noclip on and place B a short distance into the wall.
Another aspect you didn't mention (because your tutorial was about getting up there) is a good way to make bots go down the ladder. Instead of having them walk around the hole, just make a one-way connection from D to the upper ladder WP - UNLESS the distance is too far. But if this is the case, you can still make bots jump to the upper ladder WP from D...

In the following example, the best way to get bots from the ladder to the top floor would be to place a WP next to the ladder directly at the wall. This way, bots will leave ladders to the right side. But I suppose when you took this example, you meant a spot where there are walls at three sides of the ladder, right? In that case, your solution would be really good.
Another nice one is a jump from the upper ladder WP to point A - just stand at the upper ladder WP, hit your "jump" key, and you will be catapulted straight back from the ladder. If the distance is not too big, it will work fine.

Oh, and Huntkillaz: I agree with bio, I still didn't really understand what you're getting at... sorry. Describe it again in detail for us stupid guys, please...

[KWo]

Originally Posted by >BKA< T Wrecks

The solution to this is easy: If it occurs (or, if you have some experience under your belt and see that it's likely to occur), turn noclip on and place B a short distance into the wall.

OK - this is is totally ununderstable for me ???. This is probably some trick - I need see an example - maybe You have one?

Originally Posted by >BKA< T Wrecks

Oh, and Huntkillaz: I agree with bio, I still didn't really understand what you're getting at... sorry. Describe it again in detail for us stupid guys, please...

Nobody said that You are stupid...
I think I know what is Hutkillaz meaning. The problem is like on pict. nr.7 of bio, but the top of ladder is finishing exactly at the floor level or a little bit down. In this case You don't have the posiibility place a top ladder wp higher (like bio made this, because his ladder was higher on this map). I said that in my opening this thread post,too . The problem is only when in this situation I described here bot should go left or right form the top of ladder and the ladder is finished at the top exactly at floor level (floor at the top of ladder) or a little bit down. The same situation but bot shoud go forward from the ladder - I don't have this problem. But this thread went in the direction to change all wp ladder on all maps, but my basic question on my first post in this thread was - is this really needed change all top ladder WP to get bot to work or maybe there is something to do in bot code? Why this was working before? Maybe can some coder say something more...PMB said only something about necessity of changing all camp WP's, because there were some bugs in bot's code - OK - but about ladders nobody said nothing.
Maybe SF can say something more - my example was form de_train - I'm sure he was trying this and it was workable for him - so it means something was changed in the code. Probably coders had some reasons to do this, but why once again nobody said nothing... I will try this pwf with latest PMB version from 26.04.04 - probably it will work.
[EDIT]
I just tryied this PMB last release from 26.04.04 - I'm unnice surprised ???- this is not working , too. Bots get stuck at the top of ladders (the same ladders I showed in first post of this thread) on de_train map. Probably SF will be unnice surpriced, too. He didn't know about some changes in the ladders climbing code, too. There is described (in versionhistory.txt) something about AIM code on ladders, but nothing about climbing...

[biohazerd87]

Originally Posted by >BKA< T Wrecks

Nice tut, biohazerd! I agree in most points. Please allow me to add that in the first example for a difficult ladder setting (the A-B-C-D thingy) one problem could arise: A (the first normal WP behind the top of the ladder) might be too close to the upper ladder WP. This could result in bots thinking they had reached this WP A (remember there is a hardcoded tolerance for bots) as soon as they're on top of the ladder. So they could turn back to walk to B before stepping up the floor.
The solution to this is easy: If it occurs (or, if you have some experience under your belt and see that it's likely to occur), turn noclip on and place B a short distance into the wall.
Another aspect you didn't mention (because your tutorial was about getting up there) is a good way to make bots go down the ladder. Instead of having them walk around the hole, just make a one-way connection from D to the upper ladder WP - UNLESS the distance is too far. But if this is the case, you can still make bots jump to the upper ladder WP from D...

In the following example, the best way to get bots from the ladder to the top floor would be to place a WP next to the ladder directly at the wall. This way, bots will leave ladders to the right side. But I suppose when you took this example, you meant a spot where there are walls at three sides of the ladder, right? In that case, your solution would be really good.
Another nice one is a jump from the upper ladder WP to point A - just stand at the upper ladder WP, hit your "jump" key, and you will be catapulted straight back from the ladder. If the distance is not too big, it will work fine.

Oh, and Huntkillaz: I agree with bio, I still didn't really understand what you're getting at... sorry. Describe it again in detail for us stupid guys, please...

Thanks man. I will try some of the noclip tricks but I found this way works the best. I play that map all the time and never have had a bot fall off that ladder

[biohazerd87]

Originally Posted by KWo

OK - this is is totally ununderstable for me ???. This is probably some trick - I need see an example - maybe You have one?

Nobody said that You are stupid...
I think I know what is Hutkillaz meaning. The problem is like on pict. nr.7 of bio, but the top of ladder is finishing exactly at the floor level or a little bit down. In this case You don't have the posiibility place a top ladder wp higher (like bio made this, because his ladder was higher on this map). I said that in my opening this thread post,too . The problem is only when in this situation I described here bot should go left or right form the top of ladder and the ladder is finished at the top exactly at floor level (floor at the top of ladder) or a little bit down. The same situation but bot shoud go forward from the ladder - I don't have this problem. But this thread went in the direction to change all wp ladder on all maps, but my basic question on my first post in this thread was - is this really needed change all top ladder WP to get bot to work or maybe there is something to do in bot code? Why this was working before? Maybe can some coder say something more...PMB said only something about necessity of changing all camp WP's, because there were some bugs in bot's code - OK - but about ladders nobody said nothing.
Maybe SF can say something more - my example was form de_train - I'm sure he was trying this and it was workable for him - so it means something was changed in the code. Probably coders had some reasons to do this, but why once again nobody said nothing... I will try this pwf with latest PMB version from 26.04.04 - probably it will work.
[EDIT]
I just tryied this PMB last release from 26.04.04 - I'm unnice surprised ???- this is not working , too. Bots get stuck at the top of ladders (the same ladders I showed in first post of this thread) on de_train map. Probably SF will be unnice surpriced, too. He didn't know about some changes in the ladders climbing code, too. There is described (in versionhistory.txt) something about AIM code on ladders, but nothing about climbing...

Again you are not discribing to me good enough about what the bits arn't doing correctly. Tell me in 25 words or less what EXACTLY they do when they climb the ladder. I'm not mad or anyhing and the only reason i did the waypoint Manual was so EVERYONE could use it. I wasn't sure about what you ment. I am getting a picture of what BKA was talking about


WAYPOINT B IS HIDDEN INSIDE THE WALL