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-   -   Interesting update to CS today (http://forums.bots-united.com/showthread.php?t=680)

[+Duracell-] 10-02-2004 01:21

Interesting update to CS today
 
Sry...wasn't sure where to put this, so move it to an appropriate place

Quote:

From http://www.steampowered.com:
An update for all Steam games will be released this evening. See below for a list of what's included. As always, Steam will update your games automatically. Dedicated Servers will be required to restart.

ENGINE (all games)
  • Small CPU optimizations
  • Stop motdfile from having "..","","/" or ":" characters in filename
  • Added new command line option "-dll"; Syntax is -dll [game_dll_to_load]
  • Fix for updated files on the server not getting to the client when using compression
  • Fixed extremely large rcon packets not being returned correctly
CSTRIKE
  • Increased hit damage for elite pistols (slightly)
  • Decreased price for elite pistols to $800
  • Optimized entity lookup routines to reduce CPU load
  • Fix xm1014 and m3 from making endless empty clip sounds when out of ammo
  • Fixed shield bug where client could purchase multiple primary weapons
  • Cstrike spectator health fix (switching players sometimes left health display incorrect)
  • Cstrike lastinv fix (lastinv works at start of round, after picking up items, etc)
  • Cstrike corpse popping fix
  • Cstrike FL_FAKECLIENT fix (3rd-party bots should work fine in cstrike once more)
  • Fixed file leak in ReadWaveFile() function

Looks like the FL_FAKECLIENT thing is fixed. And the -dll option looks interesting as well.

Pierre-Marie Baty 10-02-2004 01:59

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Thanks for the update Duracell !

I'll move this to the FPS gamers forum.

Nice job too to the official CS bot developer who also became a member of our community, TurtleRocker ! :)

[+Duracell-] 10-02-2004 02:11

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
So what do you think the -dll commandline thingy really means? We can load a dll from the commandline as opposed to editing the liblist.gam file?

[+Duracell-] 10-02-2004 04:12

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
I have just gotten some confirmation about the -dll commandline.

It overrides the setting in the liblist.gam

HangFire 10-02-2004 05:49

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
And they still neglect to add offline play. Bah.

botmeister 10-02-2004 07:18

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
All old the bots will still not function. The new entities will not get imported, and selecting the shield will cause a crash. Because the function structure has been updated, this should cause failures when using an old bot.

Just for laughs I installed POD bot 2.5. The bots do join the game without it crashing, but in my case they don't do anything at all but jump up and down at spawn. As expected, the server gets all messed up doing weird things, and buying the shield causes it to crash and burn.

Pierre-Marie Baty 10-02-2004 14:52

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
One could write a metamod plugin that would export the missing entities. It should not be that hard to do...

botmeister 10-02-2004 20:02

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre-Marie Baty
One could write a metamod plugin that would export the missing entities. It should not be that hard to do...

We talked about this before in botmans forums. The problem is you have to do some fancy tricks to make it work. You have to fool the old bot into transfering its engine functions to a fake mp.dll, and the fake mp.dll transfers to the real mp.dll along with the new engine functions. You also have to transfer the new entities to the engine, but the old bot cannot do this, so you need something that sits between the engine and bot dll, and between the bot dll and the real mp.dll to do all this. You also need to translate all menu selects to conform to the new menu, but the new menu is f***ed up and changes depending on which menu is used (legacy or VGUI) and some other weird thing depending on what team you joined and later switched too (cant't remember exactly how that works) Fortunately, you can translate menu buy commands into the alias buy commands to make it consistent.

It's possible, but a lot of effort imo, and not worth it.

*edit*

You will also have to capture some of the messages which have changed format and translate them into something the old bot can understand. For example the weapon list message no longer works as it did in CS 1.5. The message changes probably kills the whole idea because doing translations may not be possible (did not really think of this one much). We have better things to do than resurect dead bots from the grave - right?

Pierre-Marie Baty 10-02-2004 21:33

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
right.


[BTW I'm still waiting for your reply to that email discussion we started a while ago ;) ]

stefanhendriks 10-02-2004 23:07

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
About this fix for 3rd party bots. Perhaps someone can explain me why this happens since the steam update:

http://forums.bots-united.com/showth...=5909#post5909

I bet this 'fix' has something to do with it... :(

Pierre-Marie Baty 10-02-2004 23:27

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
mass suicide ???

o_O WTF

what if you try to put their FL_FAKECLIENT flag back ?


TURTLEROCKER, REPORT IN, NOW !

botmeister 11-02-2004 01:39

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre-Marie Baty
right.


[BTW I'm still waiting for your reply to that email discussion we started a while ago ;) ]

.. and this latest fiasco is the reason why I must get on it! Expect something from me soon.

botmeister 11-02-2004 09:24

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Well I tried out the new podbot_mm.dll which has the fakeclient bit set and the bots don't all die at round start, but then they hardly ever buy weapons, and other weird things will happen. I'd like to know what was changed because nothing works as it used to before this update.

stefanhendriks 12-02-2004 17:00

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
i see on the hlcoders list there are other troubles too , like removing entities will crash the server and such.

Terran 12-02-2004 17:31

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by botmeister
Well I tried out the new podbot_mm.dll which has the fakeclient bit set and the bots don't all die at round start, but then they hardly ever buy weapons, and other weird things will happen. I'd like to know what was changed because nothing works as it used to before this update.

I've tried this too but assigned those problems to my lack of experience with this kind of stuff :P

botmeister 12-02-2004 17:37

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanhendriks
i see on the hlcoders list there are other troubles too , like removing entities will crash the server and such.

We're back to when CS first came out and the bots stopped working. So what did Valve do this time to mess us up? Looks like we'll have to do some debugging once again.

stefanhendriks 13-02-2004 14:45

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Well, we are back to CS when it first came when speaking about the BIT flags. But the new CS dll also has some faster lookup code on Entities.

If i understand correct the CS DLL now handles the entities list instead of the engine. So instead of doing an engine call , the CS can directly access this list itself.

Anyway, here a quote from the HLCoders mail list:

Quote:

Entities are now cached inside of CS rather using the engine lookup routines (because they are too expensive to use so often). If you remove entities from the world that CS knows about it will cause it to crash (so don't).

> -----Original Message-----

> From: hlcoders-admin@list.valvesoftware.com

> [
mailto:hlcoders-admin@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of

> tcwhome@cox.net

> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:59 PM

> To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com

> Subject: [hlcoders] Steam changes 2-9

>

> Does anyone know exactly what was changed in Steam as of February 9th?

> Old routines I was using with metamod on Counter-Strike are no longer

> working.

>

> For example, I can no longer dynamically add/create

> info_player_deathmatch/info_player_spawn (I get "Bad entity in

> IndexOfEdict()" after spawning a few times). If I remove weaponboxes

> (and their contents), the game crashes at round change...

>

> I suspect the "Optimized entity lookup routines" thing is what has

> brought my metamod plugin to a screeching halt. It's as if the engine

> is caching what entities are valid and then getting angry at me for

> changing them.

>

> -----David "BAILOPAN" Anderson

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,

> please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders

>

>

_______________________________________________

To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders


stefanhendriks 13-02-2004 15:10

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
I found this:
my bot does not detect NEW ROUND anymore! I bet this also explains why POD does not buy new stuff. THis also explains my mass suicide when issuing any 'killall' command and such. When things do not get initialized on round start and such, we are seriously fucked.

I don't know how you detect a new round, but i have posted mine in the programming forum.

Pierre-Marie Baty 13-02-2004 16:16

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
This discussion also means that our MapHack/MapEdit plugins, and generally everything that uses the FL_KILLME flag won't work anymore.

*boiling one degree hotter*

stefanhendriks 13-02-2004 16:23

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Here is my mail to the HL Coders list:

Quote:

Although with good intentions to fix stuff for bots, Valve did it again and broke bot support.

I see the bit flags are now working again, thats very nice. Although it does not matter anymore for any bot author on CS as we adapted our own fix a loooong time ago. Nevertheless we switch back to ensure we are not doing things that the engine does not like.

I also see my bots do not detect a new round anymore, i have done this

via:

edict_t* pfnFindEntityByString(edict_t *pEdictStartSearchAfter, const char *pszField, const char *pszValue) {

// Counter-Strike - New Round Started

if (strcmp(pszValue,"info_map_parameters") == 0) {

// New round started.

Game.SetNewRound(true);

Game.SetRoundTime(gpGlobals->time);

}

RETURN_META_VALUE (MRES_IGNORED, NULL);

}

This worked all th etime, it worked for CS 1.5 and CS 1.6. My question

is:

Is there a new way to detect round start? Is there a message sent or is there some other method to know the new round has started? Since the new Steam update i am trown back into fixing a bug again that is not even mine.

Suggestion:

- When releasing fixes for bots, TEST THEM FIRST.

Wait, let me rephrase that:

- When releasing ANYTHING, TEST IT FIRST (and ofcourse, with everything. Run a bot server, run a metamod server)

I don't mind waiting a bit longer if i am sure the next STEAM updates do actually do what they claim to do.

-Stefan

http://realbot.bots-united.com

Here is a reaction (from botman).

Quote:

S. Hendriks wrote:

> Suggestion:

> - When releasing fixes for bots, TEST THEM FIRST.

>

> Wait, let me rephrase that:

> - When releasing ANYTHING, TEST IT FIRST (and ofcourse, with

> everything. Run a bot server, run a metamod server)

Actually, it's not really Valve's responsibility to test a server with Metamod, AdminMOD, AMX, bots or any other type of plugin. Valve makes no guarantee that a new release won't break third party applications (although they try not to do this when they can). Valve obviously can't test each new release with EVERY single third party plugin, stats package, or server management tool that's out there. Some stuff will break. It's up to the plugin, stat, or server management author to check out their third party tool with each release and fix any problems that might arise. You can usually contact someone at Valve directly if you can't figure out what the problem is (or if no one else in the community can figure out what the problem is).

Since there has never been any well defined interface between MODs and plugins (in terms of how the MOD and plugin interacts with each other), whenever the MOD code changes how something behaves, it's likely to break some plugins that are "leaching" on to that data. Since not every plugin author handles the same problem the same way, some plugins will break and others will be uneffected.

This is just a fact of life if you are hooking into a MOD without that MOD's knowledge or consent. If a MOD team wanted to REALLY nasty, they could change how every single function was implemented each time a new version of the MOD was released making it very difficult for plugins to keep updated and working with new releases. Luckily, none of the Valve's MODs have ever done this, but occasionally performances changes in the MOD code effect how things are done and require plugins to be modified to work properly.

I also had replied on that:
Quote:

I do see your point, but i don't really agree with that. I understand that changes can break things, but fixes should not! Let me paste here exactly what the STEAM Update says:

- Cstrike FL_FAKECLIENT fix (3rd-party bots should work fine in cstrike once more)

This is partially true! FL_FAKECLIENT is fixed, Yet bots do NOT work fine at all.

Btw, i think Valve CAN test their product with the most used programs out there. Simply run a PODBot server , launch it, add bots, run for 5 minutes. Done. If this was done before release STEAM then the bug was already found (so you can see for yourself the statement 'bots should work fine' is not true) and so the statement should never be made in the first place.

Don't get me wrong , i am not trying to bash Valve at all, as i apreciate their hard work, yet sometimes i get frustrated with things like this. This is not the first time that happened, and i never said a thing on the list before... This time however, i did report it and i hope something will be done about it.

On Bots-United we are discussing possibilites on an information channel with Valve? IF Valve is interested in such a thing we can provide support from that scene and make sure things work, and keep on working with every release.

-Stefan



Pierre-Marie Baty 13-02-2004 16:50

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
WOW, you struck hard with your first email !!!

Mr President, IF EVER we manage to work more closely with Valve, are you SURE such entrances in the matter are the best thing to do ? ;)

Onno Kreuzinger 13-02-2004 17:51

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Well, the 2nd qouted response is acctually pointing it out:
yes Valve does not guarantee 3rd party stuff, they have no contract to do so, but viewing valve forum and the release comment (.. bot should work now) i conclude 2 things (sry botman):

- they talk before knowing (eh bots where broken by this, the bot coders fixes for that fakeclient stuff is known for ages, they did not know about what they did and when they did so (B.U. is/was running RB for 1 month)
- a lot of COMMERCIAL customers are pissed (rental server ops shut down 1.6 server because no bots and mods, no customers on the server)

and this is not good in comercial terms, when MS would break office integration of lotus notes, hell would freeze (inkl. the german MS support dept).

I thing it's ok to rant on their lists, they use CS playerminutes and comunity intheir marketing so we can get pissed when they "lie" (say blantly wrong things) and the comunity runns into our forum and complains "eh _they_(Valve) fixed why did _you_(B.U, coders) broke it ?"...

So we knocked on the door they slamed, using our foot, but we knocked and did not kick, and did have good reason (see the RB forum it's crowded with people pissed about that ".. work again", and it's stefans forum and spare time ....).

i'd suggest making an Agora document/post (perhaps one like a wikki, each one shall edit and comment, to speed the process up) to find some common ground to present to valve as our point of view and intentions for our (your *g*) bot/mod coding. This shoudl make clear our side not what we want from them, so they can make up their mind if the want to support 3rd party stuff or not.

memed

[personal thought: i think one tactic could be to push them to decide: with us or against us; no middle way on our shoulders]

Pierre-Marie Baty 13-02-2004 18:19

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Be realistic, guys. We are, at the moment, in no position to "push them to decide" or request they do anything.

United Admins maybe.

Not us. Because we're 1 month old, and we've got things to prove, for a start. My own bot is not out yet, neither is JoeBot XP, neither is Realbot - officially. What is the proportion of servers running one of our products (yes, I am talking on a "commercial" grade, but that's the point) on the net ? Do you know it ? Ridiculously small.

So I'd suggest we keep our mouth shut... for now. I think it's the only wise thing to do.



Although I agree a common "manifesto" from the third party coders (including the guys at United Admins in the process) that we would send to Valve would be a track to explore. But I am certain that if we've got nobody to back us up, we'll be just laughed at.

It would be good to have the opinion of a professional, here - botman, for example, if you've got something to say or any comment to make, I'd be pleased to hear it :)

Onno Kreuzinger 13-02-2004 18:59

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
pls. watch out this is a personal thought, no aim i'm folowing. for now getting our side clear is what i want. then valve can get a picture of what BU stands for.
In commercial terms the valve forum and the leak detector tells me that they can't afford to laugh right now. hl2 and CS:CZ are to be come like Duke Nuke'm Forever and selling GFX cards with vouchers for hl2 is stopped afaik, they are afraid some ppl. sell the vouchers for more than the (now outdated) gfx cards are sold for..
I will start a survey tonight on how many server do use bots (oh and then i will know if they run windws or linux). i will be on irc at around 01:30 and start doing network analyis on how to scan CS servers fastest.

cheers memed

p.s.
PMB, you are right, now we are nothing, but to be honest this forum looks very much like an intranet, a commercial one. so i'm in good faith that the ppl. in the council are upright enough to make a difference with the game.
p.p.s.
i respect UA, but the also leave out the endcustomer too often [there is no U.U. -> united users ... hmm]

botmeister 14-02-2004 04:07

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
The fundamental problem in this case is simple: steam removed the beta test cycle. Valve deserves a whole lot more bitching than they are getting imo. You cannot remove a beta cycle and expect people to be happy about it. Had there been a beta release of the Feb 9 update, the plugin community would of quickly tested their plugins out on it, wrote to Valve about the problem(s), and found solutions in time for the official release. That is what happned prior to CS 1.6. I know because I was using their engine update betas and I had to make changes and research solutions. It worked, and it worked well. After steam came along - poof, no more beta and the instant CS 1.6 was officially released, nothing worked! Damn that pissed me off, and it pissed off a lot of other people. Now my servers are almost bone dry, and that means Valve had just lost a lot of customers.

Valve has to reintroduce the beta cycle or they will continue to face angry users and a shrinking customer base. A beta cycle is simply good for business. Having said that, the lack of a beta is not the only reason we're seeing less people playing games like CS, but that's another topic altogether.

stefanhendriks 16-02-2004 12:33

Re: Interesting update to CS today
 
Rofl, yes i struck hard, and i hope that got them thinking. I don't care if 'we' are 1 month old. I care that 'we' kept CS alive for MUCH LONGER then it probably was in the days that Bots where really a must... Man, i remember i had over 100 mails A DAY for this CS mod and bot!


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