.:: Bots United ::.

.:: Bots United ::. (http://forums.bots-united.com/index.php)
-   Waypoint Forum (http://forums.bots-united.com/forumdisplay.php?f=79)
-   -   Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints (http://forums.bots-united.com/showthread.php?t=6314)

TomTom 20-05-2007 08:54

Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
I figured for those of you still doing the Fritzbot dance you might like something new to play with (and searching these forums caha_tavern came up empty so....).

redRum has made a visually very nice map in a 5 story Chinese tavern (plus roof and cellar). while I have issues with historical aspects of the map it is a very good piece of work. So after testing some script changes I decided to give a basic strategy waypoint for the map. So I have posted on my website the playable WIP.

Please note because of problems I have reverted the sewer wall at the end of the map such that grenades no longer work. For the human players Nedd3h has made a spawn-changer cfg. (The bots of course don't get to chose). This will likely be one of my last Fritzbot projects.

All comments and observations welcome...

nedd3h 20-05-2007 10:24

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
great map this!

with the spawn-script i made for tavern, the file setup would have to be changed to get it to work with fritzbot
i set it up for etpro

if mal ever returns to et fritz, i have a list of requests for him :)
eg. etpro class selection cvars, autoexec team/class/map cfgs etc



i think redRum's Raw Castle would be the one to waypoint myself
very fast paced, awesome looking, every class/weapon can be utilised... and it's a final version :thumbup:

check it out and see what you think!

nedd3h 20-05-2007 11:51

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
1 Attachment(s)
i had a quick look... they work well :)

a few notes:
• the third foor satchable door, some allied get stuck there... it's as if they think the door has been destroyed
• fourth floor flag, allied ran past it even though axis had just capped and was before the 45 sec 'hold floor' time (unsure if bots could be configured with this knowledge)
• temple door axis got stuck - see screenie -


i'll add this to my server :thumbup:

TomTom 20-05-2007 13:11

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Thanks Ned. Real kind of you to do such quick feedback. The waypoints will need lots of minor tweaking no doubt. The biggest issue I expect will be routing the bots away from the ladder to the roof. This may or may not work since if they fight they no longer follow a route but switch to the shortest path. And stairs will calculate as longer than a ladder.

With so many flags to chose from I don't know how the bots prioritize, but the third floor flag seems to be top priority. I suppose I could route the allies from the roof such that say 1 in 6 (or less) pass through the gazebo flag thingy on the 4th floor.

Your screenshot is interesting. It looks like the bot kneeling is chatting which might suggest it is either stuck on a clip edge (I'll decrease node 213's radius JIC) or does not know how to navigate to its selected goal (zombie). I know the side pillars can be clip problems so if the one connection by the right pillar proves a significant trap I'll reposition the nodes to go directly at the door rather than from the side.

I take it the satchel-able door is the "stairs wall" Ill keep my eyes open for stickies there.

- - -
Took a look at raw_castle. Honestly it gave my eyes a headache. I would not have thought it by the same mapper. Proportion and realism is what makes the best ET maps IMO. And here the mapper has merged in a few surreal elements (fallen leaves bigger than med packs!, mushrooms the size of dinner plates, and the axis castle was designed by committee). Its too bad because there is lots of very good work too here (the other castle is good). And as for storyline, Axis owning a castle in East Anglia! One thing is for sure it does not look the least bit like Norwich Castle or anything I saw of East Anglia.

Well Not having played it with humans, I just don't see the game flow right now, so I think somebody else should do its waypoints. Sorry. And I am debating whether I should do any new waypoints. :(My website hits are decreasing, the forums are slipping and ET:QW is only weeks away!

TomTom 22-05-2007 02:45

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
nedd3h: Similar to your screenshot I caught a bot clipping the temple door edge on the way out so the nodes now go out straight and those going in mostly go in straight for version 0.02. Still have to add more routes for the allies at the roof spawn to decrease the scrum at the ladder...

nedd3h 22-05-2007 14:46

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
thanks!

v0.03 on server now... i'll run a test night soon to get some more feedback :)

Nova2001 23-05-2007 05:17

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Cool map!

As I've never played it with people before, I'll have some feedback, but it'll take me a while to get used to the ins and outs of the map itself.

nedd3h 23-05-2007 09:57

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
i made the etpro fireteam location file which tells you what floor you're on for redRum for this map, it really helps to know exactly where you are in this one!
it's built into the map and works on etpro servers (not fritzbot)

it doesn't take long to know what level you are on from the surrondings though


[fritzbot feature request] fireteam location addon files options :)

Nova2001 25-05-2007 09:14

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
I know stairs are traditionally a problem, but the axis bots seem particularly vulnerable on the yellowish stairs connecting the first and second floors. I can stand anywhere on or near the stairs and shoot them while they push to get past me. If they make it to the upper landing, they'll open fire, but otherwise they ignore me.

TomTom 25-05-2007 10:16

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Thanks for the feedback.

Not certain which stairs you mean. I am guessing you are referring to one of the flights of stairs from the ground floor initial axis spawn in the open area with the mezzanine when they are trying to capture the first flag. These bots should be following the first spawn routes instructing them to go to one of 3 alt-roam (2 on the landings and one beyond at the base of the single flight of stairs between the first and second flag floors). It could be that the bot sight is a bit low for them in this area and that their focus is reaching the alt-roams. I found in my testing that the axis bots claimed the first flag handily so I moved the allied camps back to defend the stairs that the axis use to run from the first to third floor flags. If on the other hand the bots passing you are engineer bots going to the ladders or generator B then yes they may ignore you until you do a significant damage to their health because the ladders and generators are high priority tasks.

TomTom 26-05-2007 01:13

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
version 0.04 posted.

Added functioning camps inside the roof temple and a minor bug fix to prevent rare premature re-activations of the other roof camps. (and I upped the botsight a bit JIC)

Nova2001 26-05-2007 07:59

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
1 Attachment(s)
Great. I'll check out 0.04 tomorrow.

The stairs I was talking about are here. I'm sure, now, that something is wrong there. I can stand at the base of the stairs and shoot people running up the stairs, too. If they get on the first step, they're locked in to running up the stairs and ignore my fire completely.

Engineers will also start running for the third floor without responding to fire. Everyone else realizes that something is wrong if they reach the second floor landing (where I'm standing).

TomTom 26-05-2007 10:19

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
OK that makes more sense. The other bots kill me all the time at this location. What you are observing about the 3 axis engineer bots is what happens when Engineer bots have selected high priority tasks (and there are 3 such tasks on the floor above, flags being lower priority for engineers). Mal made the engineers act this way because in a early version engineers wouldn't defuse or dynamite when enemy players were in sight and consequently they would lose the game. As long as other bots tend to go along the same path with the engineers things should work out reasonably.

Anyway this is an important defense point for the allies since this is the most efficient path for axis in both directions, and the longer the axis don't get to blow the gen b and own the third floor flag the greater the chance that axis might run out of time (though they are heavy favorites). Now the map does have a couple of highly defendable points for humans against bots partly due to bot behavior and partly due to the map's single access points.

Thanks again for the feedback. If you find you can own the map camping at this point post the details and we can discuss options.

CrapShoot 26-05-2007 17:58

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
the workaround for that behavior is to extend routing as far as you want them to shoot at enemies. as long as their current goal is an alt_roam, they will target enemies normally.

Valiant 26-05-2007 18:21

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
I've done a few test runs using the waypoint version 0.04 and it is looking rather good so far. The bots get around well, make good use of alternative paths and seem to know what they're doing.

The only thing that caught my eye is that the bots occassionally land at the bottom of a ladder in pairs, then they fumble around for a minute trying to officialy reach the pathnode at the bottom - details follow.

At the (constructable/destructable) ladder near the 3rd floor spawn flag: pathnode 186 is at the bottom of the ladder, with a radius of 20. It seems to work in most cases, but if the radius were widened a bit it would probably clear up the potential bot confusion.

At the (constructable/destructable) ladder to/from the roof: pathnode 191 is at the bottom of the ladder, with a radius of 40. This one would be trickier I bet, given the narrow space the bots are already negotiating. A slight radius increase might help, but maybe not.

Hopefully this feedback is helpful. If you've already experimented with this and settled on the current numbers then please disregard.

TomTom 26-05-2007 20:33

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Thanks for the feedback Valiant. Anyone who helps out is a prince in my book. On your suggestions I have made a mix of radii tweaks and some extra connections in the down path, and will test them out in a few hours from now.

Hey Crapshoot, hadn't thought about that as a method. I'll try something out to verify it. Since they are high priority tasks it should work on cascaded routes too I expect. The thinking being that if the primary alt-roam and secondary route pair are at a location where the fighting is expected there is a small chance that if the engineers survive the fight that they will be inside the secondary route radius, respond to it and then be willing to fight for the second part of the route.

- - -
OK your suggestions are in 0.05. I still have to verify the engineer fighting spirit.

Valiant 27-05-2007 02:06

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
You are most welcome Sir.

I've done another test run using the version 0.05 waypoint and I wanted to share a few comments.

The tweaks to the 3rd floor to 4th floor ladder area seem very good so far. The traffic jams that I had observed there seem to be completely eliminated. The bots tend to hop down, grab the ladder to stop their fall and then rush off normally. Well done!

The traffic jams have stopped at the temple to 4th floor ladder also, but they seem to stick the landing just hard enough to take minor damage. My best guess is that the connection from pathnode 233 to 190 may be the cause. I looked at this for awhile and I'm pretty sure that this does help them avoid getting stuck on one another and so I hesitated to even mention it.

Thanks for working on this waypoint by the way, this map lends just the sort of variety that I really crave these days.

nedd3h 27-05-2007 10:08

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
v0.06 on my server :)

TomTom 29-05-2007 01:42

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
OK my unattended testing for bot vs bot balance on 0.06 is done
axis wins 17 of 24 matches about 4:1 axis:allies
no error messages
2 warnings not fritzbot related
2 killed himselfs total
40 fell to his deaths about 2.4/match
Still saw a bot catch the temple door but my workaround of making some allies pass by the door cleared the bot after 20 seconds. I might do a split node so 2 nodes will have walk flags on the way out.

The big issue remains balance. So I am polling for preferences; Reduce the match to 15-17 minutes, reduce the initial Allied spawn time (currently 24 allies vs 15secs. axis), reduce the allied spawn time when the docs are stolen (currently 19 vs 15secs.) or something else.?

Nova2001 29-05-2007 08:51

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Tough question. I'd lean towards reducing the allied spawn when the docs are stolen. Can't guarantee that'd do it, but that's my guess. Reducing the match time comes in second. Reducing the Allied overall spawntime might make it impossible to build the third floor ladder.

TomTom 31-05-2007 22:39

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Thanks Nova2001. Just to keep you in the loop I have been trying various tweaks but most have only had small or inperceptible effects. Some better camps and tighter defense likely did the most good. I got it down to 2.5:1 ratio in favor of axis in single objective mode (zero initial XP). Campaigns are worse still above 4:1. I am going to try some more radical script tweaks tonight (like doubling the time to own the 4th floor flag to 90 seconds) and see how that goes. Worst map for balancing in my waypointing experience yet one of the best otherwise.

Nova2001 01-06-2007 02:24

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
I win democracy!

Nova2001 01-06-2007 06:38

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Incidentally, I'm going to be incommunicado for the next two weeks. My mysterious, stony silence should not be interpreted as lack of support.

Keep up the good work!

nedd3h 05-06-2007 15:02

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
i just had a quick game

-Taliesen was standing still at top of 3rd floor stairs
-noticed both teams got messed up when i built the 3rd floor allied ladder fence


when i get some more time i plan to run a test night on my server for this map
more feedback soon!

TomTom 06-06-2007 05:30

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
OMIGAWD I thought that was just some wood from the local Chinese DIY! :blush: I forgot the ladder fence! I'll get on it this week. Thanks Neddie

nedd3h 07-06-2007 10:30

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
no probs! ...looking forward to your next release :)

TomTom 08-06-2007 04:09

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Well the ladder fence is going to create a problem. It is a problem I have had a number of times with Fritzbot ET. A weakness in Fritzbot is that most actions are either active or inactive globally. This is because Fritzbot uses a global map of nodes that are as it were always active but can be restricted by team. A bot assumes an active action can be navigated, then starts to search for a path. If no path exists it zombies as it tries to find the impossible. Had Fritzbot used a cellular map of nodes the bot would first determine which cells were available then chose from the active actions in those cells.

See what I would propose is;
(1) Add a cell group parameter to the nodes (separate from the group parameter)
(2) Actions would inherit the cell group number of their closenode
(3) Bots when choosing an objective would first check what cells were open to their team at that moment from the cell of its nearest node.
(b) Next the bots would priority-select an active action that was in one of the available cells
(c) Cvops in uniform would check for teamdoors providing access to additional cells
(4) When a node_connect/disconnect happened a cell manager would check if it was one of the links between cells and then update the cell connection data structures as needed.

Ok back to caha_tavern the problem is the combination of the 4th floor axis spawn becoming active before the gen B is blown. If both the stairs wall and the ladder barrier are built then 4th floor axis bots that chose an action on the third floor or vise-versa will zombie until they get killed by the other team if ever. But if the allied bots are spawning on the third floor a stalemate can occur. Without the ladder barrier the 4th floor bots continue to seek ownership of the 3rd floor objectives before proceeding on to the roof.

So what I have to do is either make the ownership of the 4th floor flag destroy the barrier (and prevent it being built) or prevent the axis gaining the 4th floor spawn until gen b is blown (if I can). And this has to apply to humans as well as bots. I'll see what works, stay tuned.
- - -
Update after testing: The latter limitation on 4th floor spawning is feasible by writing a new axis autorespawn manager that choses the highest floor that axis has the flag for except for the fourth floor which requires the "B" generator be blown before the 4th floor spawns are available. As a minor bonus capturing the 4th floor flag early can push the allies respawn to the roof so that axis can get on with owning the 3rd floor objectives. I will likely focus the axis bots on the third floor till the gen is blown. That is so axis bots getting trapped on the fourth floor will be minimized. For simplicity the 3rd floor ladder and barrier will be independant (it is confusing to have to blow the ladder before building the barrier). I have also found a bug in the original flag ownership timers (they can short cycle on recapture) so I have made a basic improvement there. I have still to complete the helper_ents for the third floor logic (I may post a version with a messy aiscript before then). And I am wondering if there is a possible jump exploit over the ladder barrier from the ladder boxes (manually I can't do it but it looks close enough for maybe a scripted jump).

TomTom 09-06-2007 08:16

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
After an evening of testing I have decided to post the latest work a bit early rather than wait for all the balance testing etc that will take us into next week. With all the changes I have upped the rev to 0.10.

MAP PURISTS will note the following differences from redRum's original:
(1) The cellar wall can't be blown with a grenade
(2) Gen B can't be blown with a satchel (slows axis down for 30+ seconds for balance)
(3) Axis can only spawn on the fourth floor if they capture the flag after gen B is blown
(4) if axis touch the 4th floor flag before gen B is blown Allies are forced to spawn from the roof.
(5) the ladder barrier can be built before the ladder is destroyed
(after all you could build the ladder before destroying the barrier!)
(6) the allied respawn time is equal that of the axis while the object is stolen
(7) there are a few extra message announcements.
and the new cvar Fritzbot_balanceIt can be used to decrease the match time and initial allies respawn time.

CrapShoot 09-06-2007 08:24

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TomTom (Post 55332)
and the new cvar Fritzbot_balanceIt can be used to decrease the match time and initial allies respawn time.

nice. i didn't know that could be done.

TomTom 09-06-2007 08:52

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Yah the cvar test commands work but little else. Another one of the things not completed in the original WET source.
http://games.chruker.dk/enemy_territory/forum
Debugging_Script_files#G_scriptdebug
FritzBuglist_ET#REQUESTED_KNOWN_ET_BUGS_BE_FIXED_I N_FRITZBOT_ET
Unattended_Testing_Methods#Scripting_Counters

CrapShoot 09-06-2007 09:15

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
i had assumed you were using existing cvars. didn't know you could define your own.

TomTom 10-06-2007 07:44

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
? ?? Like the user cvars used in make map rotation cfgs? I think you're drinking decaf...

OK version 0.10 is showing good balance but this map seems very sensitive. 3 small changes later and its balance seems off again. Well I'll play with them a bit and see. What impressed me with 0.10 was the wide range of outcomes from the axis not blowing gen A to winning in less than 9 minutes. Of course this is a map that the human player can dominate by the right strategy. One thing that would be a nice addition to Fritzbot would be the planned grenade action. Not just for removing barriers either. This map would be better if the bots knew to throw some grenades into the temple before going in to steal the list.

TomTom 10-06-2007 19:30

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
CrapShoot: I tried your alt-roam so they would fight idea in the temple but have observed a problem I guess either due to the routes or the node_flags. I had noticed that the bots entering the temple did not fight much until they picked up the book. So I added an alt roam on the node preceding the node for the steal action. Now that node is flagged for walk. And there are 2 single action single path-action routes placed on 2 of the 3 altroams used to direct the axis to the roof. What seems to be the case is sometimes a bot follows the route to the alt-roam and then stops as if they chose a different action that was no longer available. They Zombie! and prevent other bots getting to the book. Now the steal action is always active so that should not be the problem. I guess I will have to move the alt-roam out of the temple, which defeats the purpose so I might just kill the routes.

Overall the temple has been a constant pain. If I place the steal action on top of the box the bots jumping down often land on the broken box and often clip the door, if I place the action at floor level sometimes the bot does not trap the book then I guess times-out and walks out of the temple to pursue some other action. And if they time out around the door they don't chose the node I want them to (nearest) and that slows them down. I think I am going to have to fake brush a little to smooth out things on the broken box...

CrapShoot 10-06-2007 20:23

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
setting a temporary variable in a config file is different than setting cvars in a map script I think....

the zombie issue might be the same as I get on baserace. i haven't been able to figure it out..or reproduce on a consistent basis...maybe try adding the alt_roam to a node that doesn't have a node_flag

TomTom 10-06-2007 20:34

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
I do set up some of the user cvars on the command line of my shortcut that runs the map. That way I can give them their default settings. Those that I don't set up seem to be zero if tested (still undefined until set or incremented), and when incremented take their first value (1) as default.

CrapShoot 10-06-2007 21:27

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
ahh, that makes sense. back to caffeinated for me :p

=AIM= 11-06-2007 11:15

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Thanks for all your hard work, getting the waypoints just right, Tom Tom earlier on this thread you mentioned your web site getting less hits, I would spend alot more time there checking for updates if the wallpaper didn't kill my eyes so much. Don't wanna be critical but just be able to have a clearer read.

I'm gonna test Caha 0.10 now, great stuff.....

Update, just tested a few times. I was an Axis eng ran straight to top after co opened the way, planted dyno on top of gen, only once an allied soldier stopped me, got doc's ran all the way back down, no opposition as their still fighting over flags. took 30 secs to blow basement wall and still had 16.42 mins left.

My point is, is there a way to disable blowing the generator until all flags are captured first.
Stop dyno from being planted on top of gen. (Like guns in Oasis)
Land mine protection (Not sure if possible near Generator)
More defense on stairs. (If dyno planted on Gen. leave flags to defend objective)

Any of these would help to give a better ratio to Allies.

TomTom 12-06-2007 01:03

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Thanks for the feedback. Yes the map suffers (for bots) from too many high priority actions being available at the same time. Because there is almost always a high priority action I did not waypoint any camps for the attacking team (just roams), while for the defending team there are lots of camps to chose from if they are not pursuing flags or other objective actions.

Delaying the Gen A dynamite is an interesting idea I'll try some experiments and see what I can script..

Yes I can add a fake brush on top of gen A so you can't jump on top of it.

The mapper disabled landmines in the whole map and I don't think I can do anything about that.

It does not look possible to use the dynamite planted event on the generator to turn off other objectives. Chruker's site says the dynamite event can only be used on constructables. But there is a counting command I will experiment with anyway and see.

Thanks for all your ideas.
- - -
Update for the waypointers:
In testing it looks like the dynamited event does work with non-func_constructable connected TOIs. However the defused event does not work as Chruker stated. Also the accum <n> set_to_dynamitecount <toi> seems problematic. It did not count the dynamite I laid from inside the dynamited event and in other script blocks if the dynamite has blown and removed the toi then it stops ET saying it could not find the toi. Conclusion it should be possible to communicate the dynamited event on non-constructables through fake_tois to the aiscript but knowing when to reset is the problem. I guess a

Code:


wait 30
  if_action_false N
      activate stuff...

might be possible but not optimal.

TomTom 13-06-2007 01:05

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
=Aim= :

(1) My idea for disabling the gen A dynamite action is to create an CONTENTS_PLAYERCLIP fake_brush box around the generator with a trigger_hurt to simulate an invisible electric force field/fence (it is a tall box and I have not yet figured how to surface the box without using a model.) CONTENTS_PLAYERCLIP type boxes do not impede weapons fire so you can shot through them. This field would be removed after the axis blow the gen B and hold the 4th floor flag for 30 seconds.

I need some suggestions for a map to steal a sound from (barb wire sound seems wrong). I tried the airassault_fp1 (air ship) electrocution sound but it does not loop well.

(2) As to placing an invisible box above the generator to prevent laying dyno on top, I would have to use something like CONTENTS_NODROP, CONTENTS_SOLID to prevent the dynamite being thrown on top and enabled from below/ Now that type of box means everything would bounce off (bullets, grenades...). and the bots would likely try to shoot through it. So I think rather than prevent jumping on the generator I will test out the bots ability to disarm and add waypoints as needed.

=AIM= 13-06-2007 11:07

Re: Caha_tavern_b2 waypoints
 
Wow, nice work, I will keep my ear's tuned for the sound, Can the electrocution sound be altered for a good loop? I could have a go for you could you zip it and post it, if so.
These bots are good jumpers, so that would be cool if they could de-fuse on top and behind. If you would like some testing done on your waypoints, just let me know, I'd be happy to help.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:32.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.