Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Some of you know this one has been on my plate. Just thought I should start the feedback thread now.

I have just about all the problem ladders complete, and have re-worked the action groups for strict aiscript control. This weekend I expect to track down any remaining stickies if any...

Anyway the latest playable WIP 0.02 is here. All suggestions welcome, Enjoy.
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00ps, forgot to add this to the readme for those lacking the map;
NOTE: version 2 is the same as the previous final version, the mapper just updated the levelshots and readme. (and added the water in the corner of the sewer, but 2 rocks now lack their shaders!)

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Hi, while looking for the map I found a v2
http://returntocastlewolfenstein.fil...mo_Depot;74087


I haven't played any version of this map so don't know what changes there are and the readme dosn't give any changelog info. In the comments section the maker says he made some updates. Also the final comment is a claim of another bug which I'll try to recreate.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

edit: sorted

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Read the comment. The map has always been like that. The radio installation is a secondary objective that basically does nothing except give you xp. Storm Rising may Have thought differently since his script file contains the commands wm_set_main_objective ... right after you blow each objective.
However Chuker points out;
.

So This is as good a time as any, What do y'all think blowing the radio installation (anttena(sic) base0 should do...

1. Increase the Allied charge speed
2. Increase the Axis re-spawn time
3. Prevent the upper bunker wire thingy getting built
4. Something Silly
5. None of the above i have my own idea.

Post your vote and I will see what i can do between now and St. Patricks. (no I can't make the bots wear green):clover:

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BTW I just posted 0.03. It looks good, no errors in the console.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Disclaimer: due to the stupid, stupid "real world," I haven't looked at your waypoints, seen this map, or gained any basis whatsoever for saying anything in this thread.

That said, I always like it when secondary objectives (especially difficult ones) make the physical map itself easier. I suggest your third option: Making a wirey thing unconstructable, or unrespawnable, or something of the sort.

I hope to investigate this new map in more depth tomorrow night.


I loved GA_El-Kef, btw.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Thanks for the vote.
Can't really take much credit for ga_el_kef. You should really thank 420blunt for his work on sw_el_kef. I just fast ported it to reflect all the changes in the map.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Here is a question for Mal or Crapshoot.
If I add an action_plant_construct to the ammo pile entity just for defusing (prone 1) will the defuse have higher priority than major constructs (that are the depot gate and upper barrier defenses)? And if it that is so should I replace all the normal dynamite defuse (4-5) actions on the ammo pile with action_plant _constructs (even though it is not a construct)? (I am trying to tighten up the final axis defense, the axis engrs almost never get to the ammo pile in time). Thx.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Didn't get an answer so shortly I will post 0.04 with some experimental stuff (the upper wire thingy permanently lost when the antenna is gone, action_plant_constructs, action_links and other minor stuff)
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(BTW just figured out that the map is one of those that can't be the first map in a campaign. Sigh! Can't do anything about it.)

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Do we, as in anyone, have any idea what makes some maps unacceptible for first-map positioning?

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Don't know, but in searching the net the few mentions refer to the paragraph in Map rotations & Campaigns
I also would love a list of problem map interactions. It is tiresome tracking down why a texture goes bad.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -.____. - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -(... ...) - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Anyway I tightened up the axis defense especially at the start. It seems to compensate for the poor defuse effectiveness of the axis engrs in the depot.

So 0.06 will be my last posting this week. And if I get some more time and feedback I will try to promote the map to full beta by mid month (its pretty close IMO).

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Thoughts:

1> Wheeee!
2> I was a bit concerned about how often the map started out with all the allies following exactly the same path (run to left door, stock up on ammo from the lts, go down the pipe). After I got cut down a couple dozen times trying to go through the holes in the door, however, I decided that maybe they were smarter than me - the pipe seems safer.
3> The allied engineers weren't very good at planting dynamite, preferring to fight if at all possible. The covert ops never once tried to satchel the wire gate, which would have been helpful.
4> Does 'missing shaders' mean that the water randomly disappears and eerily floats through the pipes?
5> It kept saying "defence2 death," which I think means that bots were running into the spikes or something. I never actually saw that happen.
6> I like it. I had fun. Keep up the good work.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Thanks for the feedback.
5> "defense2 death" is just a debug message i put in to know when the upper bunker is satchel-ed normally (vs defense2 nomore when it is removed because the "anttena" base is blown. They will be removed before release.

4> The version 1 map lacks the water in the sewer corner. If you want that fixed, download a copy of the version 2.0 map (2 of the links in the readme are version 2). There are 2 rocks above the upper bunker entrance that are dark (shaders problem I think) in version 2 but that is a minor nag point. I hope Storm Rising finds the time to do another map. His work was so close to being complete on this map IMO. (The one way team doors are my vote to get fixed if you read this Marco).

3> Don't know what I can do about that. The map exposes the bots to an intense fight at the gate (which makes the map fun IMO). I think that is one of 2 reasons the axis engineers don't get to defuse the dynamite at the ammo in time (the other being the high priority of rebuilding the gate). I hadn't noticed that problem on the allied side, but I will look for it now. The CvOps during my play were OK on satcheling the gate (when the allies survived the firefight). How many players were you playing with (humans and bots)? BTW I suspect this small map won't scale well to larger bot teams.

2> There are a few route improvements to do (especially out of the CP room). At the start there are 4 dynamite actions available (until the defenses are built) so that draws the engineers in the direction of the sewers. 40% of the time the engineers should go off the wooden peer to their right. I'll change that to 50%. I could try adding one right-hand camp for allied medics until the seawall antitank door is blown (someplace out of sight of the sniper). But really the rest need to go down the sewers in case an engineer is going for a fast win on the ammo pile. I also could make the allied mg nest higher priority during the fight for the sand barrier too.

1> I agree, thanks for sentiment.

- - -
Ah eureka (little eureka). At first spawn the allied engrs all go for the sewers because of the goalnums on the 2 antitank doors. So they don't follow the 50% rule till the first re-spawn. So who votes Bug and who votes Feature on the first run for the sewers? (I think I will make at least one available by goal 0)

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

As promised for the original green day :clover: Ammodepot has now gone full beta. (for stopwatch, single obj and middle of campaigns).

Lots of tweaks, more routes. Bot-only-balance tests acceptably between 7 and 9 per team. To avoid bottle necks I suggest no more than 10 or so per team.

I suggest using version 2 of map (links in readme). Nova2001's "anttena" bonus now both a permanent blown upper bunker entrance and a small decrease in axis spawntime.

If you can't get it from here then take the attachment.
:clover::clover::clover:
And when you visit my site pickup the latest Lighthouse WIP.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Hooray! Happy Green Day... next week?

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

OK I have been back on this map this past week trying to perfect it for release by getting the axis engr bots defusing the dynamite in the depot. Unfortunately I came to the conclusion that it is near impossible;

(1) The map needs to be construct priority 1 so the axis will build the defenses ASAP to keep the allies out of the depot.

(2) The anttena (sic) base and the ammo shipment are just TOIs that target func_explosives and test as lower in priority than the defences.

(3) Even if the bots had time to rebuild the defences then attend to the defusing, once both of the defenses are built I have to disable the dyno-defuse combo actions to avoid making the allied engrs zombie outside the depot. I thought that adding defuse only actions (that would not be disabled) should take care of that but in testing these actions by themselves, I found the bots attending to minor priorities not the defuse actions. If any of the other waypointers know how to make a defuse-only action work on a TOI->func_explosive please post the details.

(4) and I tried using the dynamited event on the func_explosive but that does not work and the mapper did not define a scriptname for the TOI so I can't use the dynamited event on it like in CAHA_tavern.

Anyway while there may be no good solution to the defuse if both defenses are built, I did figure that if only I was dealing with func_constructibles and not func_explosives that I could arrange the defuse to be about the same priority as the 2 defenses. Originally I hoped to somehow replace the ammo shipment func_explosive by placing the func_constructible in the same place, but I found that seemingly if they consumed the same space that the new entity dynamited event was not triggered (though it did experience pain or death). I also got the cryptic SV_areaentities = MAXCOUNT message. and again with the old TOI having no scriptname property I don't think I can override it either.

So my solution is to add a new objective at the back of the dock near the mg to dynamite the big shells along the wall behind the crates. One Bot in three does come to defuse it because it is a priority defuse on a func_constructible.

So I am inviting feedback and suggestions since I will have to re-balance the map;

Option 1: Allies have to dynamite at the big shells only to win (the old ammo shipments will be absent from the map). (I seem to be able to override the limbo camera for the ammo shipment so the limbo menu should be correctible)

Option 2: Allies have to dynamite both the old ammo shipment AND the big shells at the back to win. To balance this I might have to add a time extension if they dynamite one of the two within the 30 minute limit.

Option 3: Allies have to dynamite both to win, but if the timelimit is hit the win will still be accorded to the Allies if enough objectives are complete. (e.g. They own the command post, have blown one of the two ammo supplies and have blown the anttena base.)

Or come up with your own preferred combo.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Ok here is the final beta currently being tested for release this weekend. Check the Limbo menu for the new objectives. Please report any critical problems ASAP. thx

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Fine so it is released at 0.97. A few more small changes (ladder tweak, new speaker, route changes) and another cvar option.

Fritzbot_BalanceIt = 1 means Allies can win with 3 objectives at 30 minutes namely CP Anttena and one of two ammo objectives.

But for those who prefer a simpler and easier game Fritzbot_BalanceIt = 3 allows allies a win if either ammo objective is blown.

Fritzbot_BalanceIt = 0 or 2 mean allies MUST blow both ammo objectives.

And that is all for me for a few weeks. If there is interest I will return next month with some WIP updates.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

there is always interest in your work :)

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Playing again as Allied Soldier... I made the following observations:

1. The vast majority of the bots take the tunnel, even after the front walls are blown. This doesn't make sense to me. It's much easier to blow the sand pile from the front but they don't even try.

2. They never tried to construct the command post. This should be the highest priority after the area is accessible.

3. I think that a barrier which can be satcheled should be high priority for covert ops but low for engineers. The engys just get in the way of the satchel, and then their dynamite is a hazard later.

What is a TOI? :)

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Thanks for the feedback.
1. Initially the engineers will take the sewer and plant at the back because the anti-tank sea doors have to be blown before the front sand pile dynos can be active.
Now in my experience with Humans it is hard blowing the sand pile from the front unless multiple dynamites get planted (Axis can camp on the gantry protected from most allied fire and the fixed mgs are murder). Now the bots probably blow the sand pile from the back mostly because they survive better getting there. I could possibly tweak the waypoints to encourage the bot to navigate towards the front plants but there is no simple way to ensure a higher success rate. I think I would like to hear from others if they think it is wrong to blow from the back.
2. I left the command post as normal priority because if I make it high priority the Allied Cvops do not focus as well as they should on the 2 barriers and More importantly it would draw axis engineers out of the depot when they are needed to build the barriers and defuse at the ammo. Now I could increase the priority but to avoid the latter problem I would have to disable the Axis building it soon after the start of the game (e.g when the anti-tank doors are blown. Also I don't want the allied engrs backtracking to builld the CP say after blowing the depot gates, instead of being focussed on the ammo. A problem with Fritzbot Priorities is they are fixed at the beginning of the game and the waypointer can only turn the related actions on off during the play not shuffle the priority logic.
3. To do what you ask I would disable the dyno at the depot gates to favor the cvop satchel. But then if the Cvop s were dead the engrs would look like idiots standing there waiting for 30 or more seconds for the next wave of cvops. You see I don't have direct control of the priority here either. I can change the construct and defuse priority but not the dyno priority directly. The only influence on the dyno priority is how many other high priority actions are there for the engr to do (i.e. indirect). Adding an engr camp nearby could draw an allied engr away from planting the dyno but likewise since they are equal priority, you would sometimes view the engrs as idiots waiting for cvops.
4. I am afraid I tend to frame my answers for multiple audiences with much detail. Advanced waypointer terms like func_constructible and trigger_objective_info (TOI) are some of the software objects that make up the original map. A TOI defines the area in the map where an objective exists and provides a link to another object as well as the hint as to what action is required. E.G. a func_explosive that is defined as being able to experience pain can be anything from a grenade-able barrier to a dynamitable objective that can't be rebuilt/repaired. Now a TOI that points to that func_explosive can communicate some of the state info about the func object to other parts of the game and so in waypointing for Fritzbot TOI entities are very important.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Ok first I must sadly admit I have never played ET with humans. My satellite connection is ok for downloading stuff but useless for twitch games.

But with bots I have played quite a lot. And it seems that destructible command posts are a critical objective in almost any map. Building/destroying the CP tips the game in one team's favor, increasing the probability of achieving the final objective.

For this particular map I would say the top priority should be the CP until the sand pile is blown. After that the Allies spawn next to it, making it fairly safe.

Attacking the sand pile from the front seems easier to me because Axis can only approach from the rear. The tunnel exit is a deathtrap! One camped soldier can defend it. Yes the Axis mgs are deadly but easy to take out with panzerfaust. Allies have a bunker with supply cabinets for camping to support the forward attack, and an mg of their own.

3. Maybe the engys could plant on one side of the gate, and the cvops on the other. That way a satchel could be used without killing the engineer.

4. Perhaps I will dig in and try tweaking one of the maps sometime. But really I'm more interested in modifying the basic bot behavior independent of waypoints.

Re: Ammodepot (Cement island) waypoint project
 

Well with humans the allies try for a quick win though the sewers at the start of the map. Working cooperatively an engr and teammate sometimes even get through before the depot gate is built and the engr plants the dyno while the other player defends from the mg at the back of the ammo room. It is against that scenario that I have waypointed the axis focus.

Consequently in equal teams the axis don't try to own the CP bunker since that weakens the defense of the depot. And while Human axis teams might try to own that part of the map, a balanced human allied team in my experience doesn't let the axis hold it for long.

Now I do agree that in Human play the fight for the front sand barrier seems to last longer through more use of the mgs and fieldops.

On CP Priority:
There are a large number of variables that can affect the outcome in a given waypoint (though the bots do tend to be xp queens;). The effect of the CP varies by map. Most commonly when not a primary objective it gives a small increase in charge bar refresh, but in other maps it may change respawn times or provide access to an optional spawn point or some combo. Obviously if the match is very closely balanced then the CP may tip the balance one way, but with all the variables there will likely be many times when it is not enough, or alternately not needed.

On sandpile attack direction:
?? The axis spawn on either side of it! and have about 4 possible ways out to defuse it (since they don't like the inward swing door). I don't understand your point.

3. The engrs currently plant at the corner of the gate that can provide the best cover from fire passing through the gate lattice. The allied cvops use the opposite corner but have a larger action radius. They unlike the engrs can satchel from either side, but it is highly unlikely that they will succeed from inside since they have to go the long way round and if in uniform immediately lose their undercover status if they are spotted pulling out their satchel. I see no point in restricting the cvops to the side that is least effective, nor forcing the engrs to have to pass by the axis spawn on the long way round. If it bothers you that much turn friendly fire off.