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-   -   bot pausing (http://forums.bots-united.com/showthread.php?t=5750)

person135 04-10-2006 04:19

bot pausing
 
I have a suggestion for a waypoint option. How about having a flag that tells bots to stay in one area for a while (like at least 5 seconds). I notice that bots tend to run around non stop around a map and they don't really stop at places humans do. For example, on de_dust2, on the path leading to bomb A, terrorists have to go through a double door that is the entrance to a small corridor with a big box and that is sometimes heavily guarded by CTs. Well, on these areas, humans tend to stay in that area for a while, like waiting to fire off some shots or to see if the coast is clear to rush. Bots seem to just run in and start attacking, taking all the fun out of cs.

Know what I'm saying?

Ancient 04-10-2006 05:03

Re: bot pausing
 
Well these things often do happen bots continuously running around; but camping waypoints is what your looking for. Bot's often ignore camp waypoints until the bomb is planted. (Only an observation).

Camping waypoints can be flagged for CT Camping or T Camping only.

person135 05-10-2006 01:39

Re: bot pausing
 
yes but you say bots often ignore camp waypoints until the bomb is planted.

Ancient 05-10-2006 01:46

Re: bot pausing
 
Yes.
Sometimes bots will camp if it is an important labeled camp point :)
Like in De_Dust; in the tunnel in the 3-way intersection is an example of a camp waypoint that bots use often.
When I say often; I mean alot.

You can edit map waypointss to add more camp points than normal*green* waypoints, which will offer more options to the bot.

I have noticed when camp points are around their team important waypoint; those camp waypoints are used more often.
It's just an inference.

Austin 05-10-2006 06:45

Re: bot pausing
 
I always wanted this feature. I think it would be very useful and make the bots more human like and more fun to game with.

What I would want is a new waypoint type (or possible a new wp flag).
Call it a pause wp. A number of seconds should be associated with it like 5, 10, 15, 20, seconds.

How would you use it?
Here is an example. On as_oilrig a bot runs on to the big lift and hits the button to start it in motion. The lift gets partly to the top but the dumb bot runs off before it reaches the top. We could set a one way path to the button and the next wp after the button would be a pause 10 so the bot waits until the lift is at the top.

This isn't a perfect example and I have not yet checked out the new button handling features so maybe it is better to use that now.

But I have many situations where I would use this in most every map.
It would make playing the bots more fun!

KWo 05-10-2006 08:53

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin
On as_oilrig a bot runs on to the big lift and hits the button to start it in motion. The lift gets partly to the top but the dumb bot runs off before it reaches the top.

Really? Have You been looking at this demo?
Ehh, Austin, seems You really need to check the stuff before You complain after Your come back.. :P

Austin 05-10-2006 10:00

Re: bot pausing
 
Yes I do need to spend some time learning everything agin, but I did say the oilrig example may not be a good one to use as a pause example since you probably have better new lift/button code.

I still would like a pause wp to use for general game tactics.
There are places in the maps where t and ct generally meet and I think putting some pause wp around these may make for some interesting combat.

There are other places in the map where humans do tend to stop for a few seconds.

For example in de_train, in the hall by ts spawn at the top of the ladder.
Humans will generally rush to that spot and camp for 20-30 seconds waiting for some one to come up the ladder.

This may by tricky to code and design since we probably do not want every bot stopping at every pause wp every time.

Lets keep talking about how it may/should work.

I could never get demos working on my PC. maybe I should try again now years later??..

KWo 05-10-2006 10:28

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin
I could never get demos working on my PC. maybe I should try again now years later??..

Download that demo zip file and unzip it into Your ...\Steam\SteamApps\austin@email.com\counter-strike\cstrike folder.
Then fire up the CS (but don't create a game yet). You should see the console. Type in it:
viewdemo demo_name
Not sure if You have to write demo_name.dem (probably not important).

[EDIT]
Another command to see the demo is playdemo (but You cannot pause or go back etc).
[/EDIT]

Austin 05-10-2006 11:35

Re: bot pausing
 
I can play demos!
Awesome demo, Awesome bot functionality!
(Worked without the .dem)

Going to use these waypoints for oilrig!
TX!

Ancient 05-10-2006 12:37

Re: bot pausing
 
hmmm that demo exaplains alot about lifts; maybe put it in doc files?

KWo 05-10-2006 14:22

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancient
hmmm that demo exaplains alot about lifts; maybe put it in doc files?

Here You have another one. It's really hard to write something about it, that's why there are these demos. The same thing is concerning to buttons. I'll probably upload some demos with cs_iraq and cs_arbstreets. This way You will be able to see how it should be done. I even found some part in Advanced Waypointing section of docs which needs to be rewritten (I disagree).

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb mm docs
If you have a door that stays open once it is opened by using a button, you won't need a button flag. The first bot to approch the door will detect that it's closed and push the button. All it takes is a connection setup that will force the bot to pass by near the button before going through the door. Once the door is open, the next bot will know that there is no obstacle, ignore the button and just walk through.
If you had a button flag at such a door, the second bot would push the button again (thus closing the door again) and run into the closing door, so only add button flags at auto-closing doors.

Since the new implementation of button code in V3 that's not the problem anymore if You place the button flag near a button with such kind of door. What will happen? The door is closed. The first bot presses the button and go back to the previous WP and is waiting until the door is open. Then it goes. This guy is so smart and sometimes (randomly) is thinking so - "maybe I close the door if I'm at the other side already - the enemy will need more time to hunt me". So - sometimes - after passing such door - if there is a button flagged WP at the other side of the door - the bot pushes it and goes away. The next bot what - will do - if the door is closed - it will look for the button to open it, then it passes that door. There is no problem the bot stay bumping on the door because presssed unnecessary button (the door was already open for example) - if it bump into the door - it will open it anyway. No problem at all.

person135 05-10-2006 21:05

Re: bot pausing
 
anyway, back to the topic, can someone make the pause waypoint?

@Ancient: what do you mean the important camping waypoints? Do you mean labeling camp wps with team specific waypoints?

The pause waypoint could be for bots to wait behind after team mates rush a place or for them to figure out or not if it is safe to go into a place or stuff like that.

Also, camp waypoints mean that bots can only stay in that one spot and camp at the place the waypoints points to. The pause waypoint could be for an area where the bot kinda patrols that area or walks/runs around in that area. The bot can also not be limited to the place to look at that camp waypoints limit.

Austin 06-10-2006 09:07

Re: bot pausing
 
I do want a pause waypoint!
I think it is definitely necessary.

A walk waypoint is also needed.

But we need to discuss how these should be implemented.
And we are getting, FINALLY! into the realm of true bot personalities.

For example, noobie bots just rush all the time.
Better bots rush to some strategic point in the map and either wait for an enemy or walk as to not alert the enemy they are around.

Playing with POD again is like playing with a bunch of noobies!
Rush all the time.
Throw flash at the start of a round!
and on and on...
It is sort of fun but we can do better!

KWo,
I want to totally rewrite the docs and include absolute everything.
This way we will have all information in one place.
Information on setting up metamod on DS and listen server.
Information on setting up POD on DS and listen server CS and CZ.
All commands well documented with examples.
All waypoint features with all examples and demoes we have.
All information from “sticky” posted messages with now half good and half outdated information.

I will send you a private message on how I should proceed!

KWo 06-10-2006 11:37

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin
KWo,
I want to totally rewrite the docs and include absolute everything.
This way we will have all information in one place.
Information on setting up metamod on DS and listen server.
Information on setting up POD on DS and listen server CS and CZ.
All commands well documented with examples.
All waypoint features with all examples and demoes we have.
All information from “sticky” posted messages with now half good and half outdated information.

Remember one thing - if the docs are too long for reading (a lot of info, a lot of examples) - unfortunatelly the people are too lazy to read it. You may do a good job which will be useless. The current look of docs was designed by sPlOrYgOn and it looks much better than old docs for R2B4x. I need You rather focusing on beta testing with bug finding than to re-write the whole docs...

Ancient 06-10-2006 13:03

Re: bot pausing
 
Yea that door thing in the docs was kind of confusing. ;)


I think I was told bots walk when they can here the enemy/ (But thats what I was told, I think)

I do think bots can stop flashing in the begining of rounds like a dumbass who wants all the glory every round.
I have my bots on I think advanced or professional (70 - 90), yes my score blows up into the hundreds within 10 rounds :P, But I do think in all that the bots can be harder.
The old 2.6 was hard to me with skill 70 - 90, now they are easy. I don't think it's because of my skill or experience but the bots skill.
I don't play with bots for weeks maybe even months, but yet I still go around and rack up points.

When I played 2.6 on cs 1.5, that was difficult, now the new beta seems a bit easier.
Lets say compare pb mm to yapb.

pb mm, easy on skill 70 - 100.
yapb harder on skill 40 - 100.

KWo 06-10-2006 13:30

Re: bot pausing
 
Seems the people keep continue spam topics... :(
Play against podbot mm with skill 100 - then tell me if they are still too easy for You.

Ancient 06-10-2006 13:59

Re: bot pausing
 
I'm sorry, but I think the bot pausing should be in the selected amount of skill that the bots are on.

Noobies should take longer to get places, and advanced to godlike should be rushing.

I was going to say this in my last post, but I got distracted.

But I wonder if adding pauses into the bots will affect how they use waypoints.
For example, a bot decides to pause and some bots get stuck together.
That's my only concern about this pause idea.


And person135 team important camp points are camp points, with a flag called Team specific, choose a team and a bot on that specified team will only be allowed to use that camp point.

person135 06-10-2006 21:02

Re: bot pausing
 
hm I never thought of bots getting stuck together. What I was thinking was that you have to put pause waypoints around a certain area (like the 4 cornes or a rectangle if you want bots to pause in that area) and have bots just walk around randomly in that area. I wasn't thinking about a bot pausing a just one waypoint and not moving.

it could also work to implement it into the bot personality or skill level or something like that.

Of course you could have bots pause at a waypoint and make that waypoint count as occupied when a bot is on it, so other bots won't be able to go to the waypoint and get stuck. Also, you can have like small areas to pause in, and when a bot is in an area, the area is "occupied" so other bots know.

Austin 08-10-2006 10:37

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KWo (Post 51980)
Remember one thing - if the docs are too long for reading (a lot of info, a lot of examples) - unfortunatelly the people are too lazy to read it. You may do a good job which will be useless. The current look of docs was designed by sPlOrYgOn and it looks much better than old docs for R2B4x. I need You rather focusing on beta testing with bug finding than to re-write the whole docs...

KWo,
your the boss!
Tell me what needs to eb done and I will work on it.

For the docs I guess I will just add the new commands and that is all and send them to you.

For testing I am running a DS 24/7.
I have 3 POD and 1 cz bot for every human. Since cz bots thinks POD is human this gives 3 pod and 4 cz bots for every human. Everything is runnning perfectly. No problems. Is there something specific you want to test?

KWo 08-10-2006 13:14

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin
Everything is runnning perfectly. No problems. Is there something specific you want to test?

I know that's not true... Try to put more bots and You will se - for example they stuck too much with them-selves at round start (which I'm working on right now...).
Don't forget You are a moderator here - so You should be as "the example" for other users - for example don't flood topics by offopic things... :P

This forum uses private messages, You can also find me sometimes on yahoo/aim/msn/jabber messangers. :D

person135 08-10-2006 17:55

Re: bot pausing
 
KWo, what's your AIM screen name? Also, @austin, how do you have 2 bots running at the same time?

KWo, will you accept the pause waypoint?

Ancient 08-10-2006 18:40

Re: bot pausing
 
I used to spectate noobies when I was bored and I wanted the teams to be balanced, I spectated someone, and they walked around alot; also camped a hole lot.
When he got agitated (unhappy), he would rush and run around fairly quickly but didn't shoot as fast as an experienced person. I think the noobie skill that's already set on the bots are pretty much the same as what I spectated.

I don't think that there should be pauses in an area, but I do think that there should be longer pauses on a camp waypoint. I remember I would camp in a spot for up to 2 minutes sometimes 40 seconds, I think a bot with a noobie skill should do the same :)

KWo 08-10-2006 19:51

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancient
I do think bots can stop flashing in the begining of rounds like a dumbass who wants all the glory every round.

Fixed in V3Build 15g (today or tomorrow wil be uploded to the filebase). Next time, please, write it in Bug Report section instead flooding another topic, not related at all to Your plroblem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancient
I have my bots on I think advanced or professional (70 - 90), yes my score blows up into the hundreds within 10 rounds :P, But I do think in all that the bots can be harder.
The old 2.6 was hard to me with skill 70 - 90, now they are easy. I don't think it's because of my skill or experience but the bots skill.

The old pb R2B46d had almost no differences between skill (10) and skill (100). The V3 has the more apparently difference between skills, so if the bot skill (90) is too easy for You try to play against bots (100). I'm playing with them (skill (100)) and they headshot me all the time.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin
For example, noobie bots just rush all the time.
Better bots rush to some strategic point in the map and either wait for an enemy or walk as to not alert the enemy they are around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancient
Noobies should take longer to get places, and advanced to godlike should be rushing.

About that rushing - they are completely oposite wishes... :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by person135
KWo, will you accept the pause waypoint?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancient
For example, a bot decides to pause and some bots get stuck together.

Because the unstuck code isn't yet perfect, I cannot do this yet. First the unstuck must be perfectly working. About 2 months ago I re-wrote unstuck part and it still doesn't work as I would wish. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by person135
KWo, what's your AIM screen name?

It's secret. :P I'm not providing the online support. :) And also I'm almost all the time offline (otherwise I could do nothing :) ).

[EDIT]
Just uploaded in beta section V3 Build 15g with that flashbang fix. @Ancient, please, test the crap...
[/EDIT]

person135 09-10-2006 03:53

Re: bot pausing
 
but KWo, the bots at level 100 are too easy! I've even tweaked the stats at level 100 to extreme numbers, like minturnspeed 60 maxturnspeed 400. I think I play with them at 60-100. Could you just make the bots harder (bots at all levels)? That way, people can normally play with level 40 bots because they are harder.

Ancient 09-10-2006 04:23

Re: bot pausing
 
No early flashbangs in 15g.

If the unstuck gets better I would recomend this pause idea.

KWo 09-10-2006 09:21

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by person135 (Post 52033)
but KWo, the bots at level 100 are too easy!

Answered in this topic. Please, don't flood threads with problems not related to the main subject of the topic.

Austin 15-10-2006 09:19

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by person135 (Post 52021)
@austin, how do you have 2 bots running at the same time?

I am running a Condition zero dedicated server.
I run the built in cz bots and POD bots.

I set these to force bots to one team or the other.
bot_join_team t/ct
pb_bot_join_team t/ct <= (Thanks KWo!)

Then I set these to automatically have a decent number of bots per humans.
bot_quota_match 1
pb_bot_quota_match 2 <= (Thanks KWo!)

This gives me 2 POD and 3 cz bots per human because cz thinks pod is a human and adds a bot for each POD AND human.

If I have good team players on I set
bot_quota_match 1
pb_bot_quota_match 3

This gives me 3 POD and 4 cz bots per human!

I hacked all of my maps to have 28 spawnpoints per team.
Great fun with 4-5 good team players and 28 bots!

The mix is really good. Each bot has it's strength and weaknesses.
cz bot like to camp a lot at ct while pod seems to keep moving.
cz bots are very good at getting to the bomb and defusing, pod seem to take a little longer.
(ca bots talk to each other to let the other bots know where the bomb is. Maybe this is the main difference?)

The mix is really fun and more challenging and less predictable. ALL of my long time members like this setup way better then CZ bots.

It only works because of the two new cvars KWo gave us.

I have even seen weird things like two different type bots following each other all around the map! I think cz and pod like each other!

The other amazing thing is even with this many bots they really dont have a big problem with getting stuck on each other. They move out and almost never get stuck for the round. They actually get stuck far less with the mix then with pod only.

person135 16-10-2006 02:40

Re: bot pausing
 
Yeah I've tried doing it on my cs1.6 LAN server, but it didn't work. I enabled both bots and didn't work. Maybe I should do it on a dedicated server.

How did you do it? Like what exactly did you do?

Austin 16-10-2006 03:14

Re: bot pausing
 
You can't run the cz bots on cs1.6.
I guess there is some rip off called zbot that is supposed to do it?

1) This is stealing. The people who developed the game really deserve the small amount of money they are asking for cz. I think I got mine for something like $15 or $20 dollars.

2) It would be too much trouble to set up and keep running I would think. No official support.

Just buy a copy of cz and run a cz server. It is setup almost exactly like a cs ds and will run all the cs maps and it will run most if not all metamod projects and amx projects, and it looks better and it has the cz bots which are a little better then the pod bots in some ways, in some ways not as good as pod bots, so the mix of cz and pod bots work out really well!

I ran a cs DS for several years. I think I started with version 1.3 and stopped when they took WON down a few years ago. I switched over to cz then and have been very happy with it. It is much better then cs1.6. The scripting is better. the Graphics are a little better.

I can give you a link to download my entire cz ds (just the config files, maps and my metamod project.)
All you would have to do is install the cz ds server, unzip my files, name the server and start it up. You would have all of my maps hacked for 28 bots per side (still 32 players total at one time.) no headshots to humans, free guns at the spawns and a few other really nice things.

Since valves give the ds for free all you need is the cz client.
All this for the price of one pizza!

KWo 16-10-2006 09:05

Re: bot pausing
 
Well - some time ago Whistler posted some leggal method to enable CZERO bots under CS1.6. Read here.
The only thing which is missing in his post is - You still need to have some CZ files, which we cannot post here (but You can extract them by GcfSpace from czero gcf file You probably have on Your PC - that stuff is leggal). If You will be interrested I may give You the list of files You need to have to run these bots on CS1.6.
I'm getting mad at You guys - if You have the problem with running CZ Bots - post a separate topic in Common Questions instead flodding the topic not related to this problem...:nono:

person135 22-10-2006 04:34

Re: bot pausing
 
well, KWo, generally, you should have bots pause more. For me, the bots run all over the place too quickly and when they camp, they camp too short. And Lots of times, they don't camp.

you should make them pay more attention to camp waypoints. You can have them camp longer at camp waypoints.

also, you should have them stick around team important waypoints. Like they should walk around the waypoints surrounding the team important waypoints more.

Ancient 22-10-2006 04:43

Re: bot pausing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by person135
also, you should have them stick around team important waypoints. Like they should walk around the waypoints surrounding the team important waypoints more.

That would propably cause them to avoid goals... (I think).

person135 22-10-2006 16:07

Re: bot pausing
 
no i mean have them still pay attention to goal waypoints, but when they pass team specific waypoints or camp waypoints, they can either choose to stick around there or pass them.

you know that some humans (actually quite a few) don't go and plant the bomb or rescue hostages st raight away. Some don't even do that at all. They are called rogues, players who don't try to complete the missions. Rogues just try to run around and kill people. maybe you can have some bots simulate them too

KWo 22-10-2006 16:30

Re: bot pausing
 
If You read carefully the whole forum here, You may find this - some time ago the bots were focusing almost only on killing the enemies. The people here asked me to do bots focusing more on the mission (rescuing the hosatge, bomb planting). I did this, now another person - You - is complaining they focus too much on the mission instead do other things like find and kill the enemies. If there is the situation - one team has 2 times more alive players than the opposite team (for example 4:2, 6:3 etc) the bots from that team with more alive players are trying to find the enemies to hunt them and kill (only some bots are focusing still on the mission). If even that doesn't work - I have no idea how to make everyone happy... :(

person135 22-10-2006 19:10

Re: bot pausing
 
no KWo, you misunderstood me, I just want the bots to pause more thats all.
I just want them to pay more attention to camp waypoints(camp longer) and stay around team specific waypoints more


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