Some things ive noticed
 

Hey

I think fritzbots is by far the most human or all the bots (bobots + omnibots).

However some things that I have noticed: Eg: Axis - Oasis - There are 4 spots where they camp and crouch and stay still, After playing the map for the first 2 hours on oasis I got to know exactly where they camp both axis and allies and it got way to easy. Is it possible to make it so its less obvious where they will be, like I walk into a room and know where to shoot because they are always there, and if its an allies camping in an axis camping spot its obvious that its a covert ops in disguise. Is it possible for the bots to camp in places above the old city like up on the ledges or camp in lesser known places where clan people and people on the internet camp, I have seen 1 bot in a 8 vs 8 camp in a higher spot but rarely. I am not saying this to put the creator down, Fritzbots are the best to play with, I am just trying to put a point across.

Another way to make it more human is to make the bot either enter the opponents base at times, spawn camp, maybe not spawn camping but run in and invade their spawn, like on oasis, axis stay at the old city, hmm ive noticed players on the net run into the allies base, also camp in the tunnels.

Another thing I hate is if I am camping in say oasis up top above the old city and proning, its impossible for them to see me but they start shooting like they know im there, it I show myself they get me. sometimes I get them but, Its very hard to camp because they see you no matter where you are, if my head pops up out of a little window and they are a fair bit away they start shooting when a human doesn't.

Also their aiming is also good, but they always hit you, on easy they get alot of body shots, I would be strafing like nutz but they get you even with a rifle, if its possible for a bot to miss every once in a while.

The last thing is, close up fights with another smg player is too easy, their aim is good, but sometimes its too easy because they stand still and burst like noobs, at least Ive never seen them strafe with a smg, only in warm ups they go crazy, its not like in a server a human is going to stand still with a smg. they strafe and I would like to see the bots doing a little of it. Ive noticed they do it with pistols and rifles, that jump strafe they do with pistols is annoying.

Now Im no scripting/programming genius, I don't know the first thing on how these things work and I don't even know if its possible to make the things listed above better, im just a noob trying to give you guys my point of view.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

they do.
set AI skill (not aim skill) to hard and they will strafe, crouch, prone in various combinations ;)

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Best combination ive found so far is Bot AI on Hard and Aim on Easy, at least i have the most fun with that, but i do agree with the rest of what you said

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

I do have it set to Hard - Easy, They strafe when they have pistols and rifles, but they rarely strafe with smg, maybe I don't notice 0_o Maybe they do. ehh.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

hmmm yes... They dont stafe here aswell, and by the way, does somebody notice that you cant pickup the health and ammo packs there throwing ??? :P

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

I've also noticed some things while playing this.
-There's a bug in sw_kef_el: when you spam arty to allied spawn the whole allied team froze... I played 2on15 (skill: hard, aim:medium) with my friend and we were able to make fulldef like that :/
-Then in ice we saw some supermegamg-users. They always shot 3 headshot behind 2 trees and a wall. A little too much maybe?

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

well... the AI skill on hard is working fine for me... they move nonstop.
the freeze bug...well known happens on other maps as well (hopefully fixed soon).
the acc...also well known is in the works too.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Yeh, notice how if you bind something like bind h vsay_team MTHealme "Heal me!" to say Heal Me ! or even thanks the bots don't respond. You always have to go through Hit v then 4 then 5 or w/e for thanks so they will reply, Your Welcome, or V - 8 - 2 - 2 for Heal Me! so the medic gives you health.

I think thats a negative thing, coz i have shortcut vsay everywhere and I can;t use them in fritz, i guess everyone has that problem too.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

i have thank you , i need ammo , need a medic , and sorry on my F keys...
they give me med when i call , same for ammo, and say no problem for thank you..
dont know what u r doing wrong :)

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

The way bot camping works in Rtcw Fritzbot (and I presume, also in ET for the most part) is simple. A green node, designated for Actions is placed at any given location - said action is tagged to mark what kind of action it is (Dynamite objective, camping, camping aim directional marker, Objective steal, Spawn Flag grab, etc.)

This label is available for one, or both teams - this means it can be set to nothing for Axis, and something for Allied or something for both sides. There are other relevant variables to be set of course but the important thing to point out for our immediate purposes is that the Bots arbitrarily decide what they want to do based on the following conditions (more or less):

A) What actions are available to their class during the current Goal ID# specified by the Goal Tracker. (By matching the GroupNum# on the active actions)

B) Which of those actions are currently Active and Reachable via pathnodes.

The rest is pretty much up to the bot and fairly random. If he wants to camp over on the stairs, he will. If his behavior is set to roam and hunt, he'll blow off camping entirely and wander around for someone to shoot. So you can't really modify the Bots general camping behavior for specific locations in a specific map.

All you can do is designate more locations to be available as camps - and let that lend more variety to playtime when the bot decides where and if he wants to hang out. However, there is no way at current to make it randomized in any sort of fashion because you always have to designate specific places at which he may choose to wait.

As far as the strafing goes, I tend to keep my bots turned down because I'm not that great of a player. But when I loaded it up on default (Medium AiSkill, Medium AimSkill) they seemed to strafe-dodge when reloading in general, among other things. It may be a simple matter of fiddling to get the right balance of the two settings. Then again it just may need to be tweaked a little - but thats not my department. hehe.

EDIT:

CovertOps being too obvious by camping in the Axis locations could be fixed either by making Axis CovertOps with no enemy command center to destroy (or if the waypointer feels they shouldn't be going after it currently) not camp at all. Or Temporarily flag them able to read Allied Camp Actions and use them while in disguise. Though wandering around makes them just as easily spotted IMO, plus the second idea necessitates there actually being Allied Camps, and there's not alot of use for them on most single-objective maps where they're on offense.

Having the bots assault the enemy spawns is a simple matter of placing patrol actions over there during waypointing. Not difficult at all, the real question is - should you? That sort of thing is all or nothing, either they do it or don't. Its not optional on any level once done. Some players, such as myself may find that rather agitating to be spawncamped or ganked at the spawn occassionally. I would be all for it, if there was some way to toggle that behavior on and off. Since there really isn't, I wouldn't incorporate that into my waypoints because I'd personally find it unsettling.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Please Delete, accidental duplicate posting -_-

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

please delete this.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Danke:

Thanks for the comments. Fritz is still early beta software, so a lot of the issues you point out are things on my TODO list that need to be fixed/tweaked/improved/added. So, we're working on them, and Fritz will get gradually better with each release. :)

RE: strafing, they should do it at any time with any SMG weapon. I've seen them do it quite a bit and have coded them to do it if they so choose, but they try to mix up their tactics, and some bots will do it more then others at certain times, so thats why some here have seen it, and others haven't.

Spawn camping is a matter of taste, a lot of ppl hate it, so its never been added yet. If one of the waypointers really wanted to add that behavior (and they're more then welcome to) I wouldn't stop them, but I don't encourage it. I know its behavior online players do, but online players also cheat, whine, cause troubles, annoy, etc, etc - which are things I don't want Fritz to do either. ;) I want to simulate the GOOD and FUN aspects of online pub play, not the lame stuff. :chinese:

Camping location is up to the waypointer. They can add as many or as few as they want. Since this was the first version of Fritz, I'm sure things that need improvement will be worked on in time.

the bots should have no problems hearing your chats if you bind them to keys - thats what I do, and they respond properly like they should. They don't respond to just text, but instead the actual voice chat.

Cheers!

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Hmm, I'm a little confused since I'm a noob at this stuff. So what your saying is you can create new nodes for the bot to goto, like in oasis you could create a new node for the bot too camp above the old city (either the axis placeabove the old city wall or right above the old city flag room etc.)

It would be good if the axis bots could use the tunnels in oasis and use dynamite to blow the water pumps up :) I think I seen this done with another bot like bobots or something.

As far as the bind vsay stuff goes, if the bot gives me ammo or health I say thankyou via my binds and the bot ignores it, If I say, I need ammo or Heal me the bot ignores me, the second I do it the long way for Heal me the bot heals me, its annoying. So you mean you don't have this problem? I'll try binding them to my F keys and see where that gets me.

Thanks

EDIT: I just seen your post Mal, I see spawn camping as a problem if a panzer dude takes out about 6 people as they spawn all the time, however if its a long distance spawn camper with a smg or sniper, maybe its ok, its just another tactic and I don't see whats wrong with that. I do hate the spawn camping on battery though, the minute you spawn you die if your enemy is good at long distance aiming, if not maybe you can take them out first. What I mean is, all axis bots do is defend in their own base, Maybe some can defend the entrances (eg: radar) some can camp at the side entrance, some camp at the objective, some at the main entrance and maybe some can camp near the allies base to catch them before they enter the axis base. I just see it as a tactic, take them out before they reach the axis base, I see spawn camping as taking them out the minute they spawn and they dont have a chance to take cover or fight, if they have a chance to get whats going on and regroup and move out before starting to fight its ok isnt it?

Eh nvm :) I guess spawn camping is spawn camping.

I do use the vsay chat binds, not just text, the talking and they dont reply, I use the normal f g h t y buttons not the F1 F2 F3 Or the numpad buttons, I'm gonna try though.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Oasis waypoint changes are in the works already. When I created them, I did most of the testing playing 13 v 13. Since most seem to be playing 10 v 10 (because of the default g_maxbots setting of 20) or lower there is a bit less resistance getting to the base than I had intended.

The bots are responding to me whether I use binds or the menu.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Also, you must know that there are several things the bots consider before they respond to a call for ammo/health.

1. You must be fairly close to them.

2. You must not be moving around too much (they know better then to chase you around the map).

3. You must be easily reachable to them. If your in a hard to reach spot, they'll ignore you.

4. You must need the stuff you ask for: medics will ignore you if your full of health, for example.

5. They must have charge enough to supply you what your asking for. If you ask a FOps for ammo right after he threw an airstrike, hes going to ignore you.

I've never had an issue calling for a medic or FOps as long as all those conditions were met.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

If the bots ignore you, join the other team and kill em :)

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

One things that should be added is ability to push bots, 'cause it's really annoying when they get stuck to doorways and you have to stab your way through...

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

i read something about why they dont have that cause bots will push each other off cliffs and whatnot ...at least i think i read it somewhere on here.. heh, but i do have that issue alot as well... a bot getting stuck in a doorway and just jumping up and down sometimes getting up to 5-6 bots stuck together but it doesnt happen that often ...not enough to bother me anyway..

adding poison needle for medics tho would be nice

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Maybe that could be added to player only?

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Maybe it could be a setting you can manually switch on and off.

I've noticed that the bots get stuck on radar in the allies first spawn on the second story in the room when they try to escape out of the windows, sometimes they get stuck their... I usually help them out, try not to kill them.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

I'll see about re-adding it. The code for it is actually already in there, I just don't have it enabled.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Another thing is the heal and ammo racks, possibly make the bots know where they are and how to get ammo and health from there :)

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Yes, its on my TODO list. ;)

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Well i played a bit through on oasis;

I find a hard strategy\medium aim gives the fairest fight to me, so i went with that. For sure, the AI is great. It zips around somewhat realisticly, even ambushed me a few times around a corner, and smacked down health and actually healed me. People online could learn from this AI! Actually using your medic packs! The idea!


However, and theres always a however, the AI needs to be much more agressive and less 'clumpy'. For example, after taking the Old City practicly the whole team sat around jimping out in the open-and axis is nowhere to be seen. This is because the AI groups together instead of going solo, which is great, but really takes the pressure off the defenders IMO. I bet the whole axis team was waiting on THERE side of the wall, too. And not a single engie around to place the TNT.

High places...they need to go up on ledges alot more there, its normally a constant firefight on servers back and fourth while the wall is being dynamited. Again in old city, the axis prefer using that side door to going up on the ledge and firing down.

They sit in the same spot everytime. Far to campy, anyway.

Defenders too passive. As axis they just defended the old city area without heading out towards the allied spawn, and taking control that second story route. Speaking of that, the AI generalyl stick to only one route, and didnt go through the second story much at all.

Also, medics are not focused enough. If i get killed, they just go off and keep shooting even though there is a TON of guys on our side holding em back, and no reason not to heal me. Medics reviving should be TOP priority second only to healing yourself. Then shoot the enemy.

Finally, one of our own guys called arty on out spawn point, SKing dozens of us. Innocent mistake? Or should i ban that bot? ;)




Again, great AI but could be even better.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

I think people are forgetting that this is a first release?

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

I made this topic so I could put out my point of view on what I thought could be improved, and sure, maybe other peoples point of view aswell.

I hope this isn't putting you guys down, you all have done a great job on the first release of fritzbots. I just don't want to regret not posting this lol, when you guys release the second fritzbots for et and I say, damn thats not in it, I really wanted that to be in it, and its not because I was too stupid not to put in a suggestion.

You guys might already have known about the stuff I have said, but I just wanted to make sure.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Feedback is definately appreciated and certainly expected. This thread seemed to be taking a certain direction and I thought it might be a good idea to re-emphasize that this is the first release.

Tank support and bug fixes are top priorities at the moment, but everything that has been listed here is definately being considered (hitsounds and etpro map script support should definately make it for the next release); so keep the suggestions coming.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

I'd also like to point out that since the strategy of the bots on any given map is more or less entirely a function of the waypoint blended with their personal preferences for mode of operation (camp, patrol, etc.) it probably wouldn't be good to make their setup 100% airtight.

Personally I think that if there becomes an emphasis on ramping up their difficulty and playstyle to be more brutal - then there definitely needs to be additional levels of difficulty inserted to make a more gradual curve. Not everyone is an undefeatable pro or has the time to practice daily afterall.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Balance will remain one of the priorities while waypointing. For Oasis, I do plan on adding alot of the things mentioned in this and other threads, but balance will be a determining factor.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

My friend noticed a bug while playing as a covert ops. He took disguised himself becoming invicible for the enemy team (unless shooting them 1st). But that's not the bug. When he took the parts, in radar i think, he was still invicible to axis team, so he was able to secure both partrs easilly. Maybe you could make bots see the objects sign?

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Perhaps there should be more options like a whole menu for difficulty where the user can set stuff on and off to their liking (eg: strafing or camping, etc).

Or maybe just have more AI skills like 1 - 6 or something. IDK.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

With Fritz, I've followed the K.I.S.S. princible. Thats means keeping it as simple as possible for the end user. Tons of user defined controls only create confusion and headaches.

Some of you want a bot thats basically that: a robot that you can control and order about.

I'm sorry, but thats NOT what the FritzBot Project is about. My intentions with Fritz has always to make a bot that could simulate a good human pub player. To bring the pub server experience to ppl who don't have good connections, can't find a good server to play on, or who want to practice without being bothered. That means sometimes they do things you'd rather them not do, but as long as its something a REAL person would do: then they're doing what I designed them to do.


This is a first release, so of course its going to have bugs and issues. If I waited to release until it was perfect, I'd prolly never release! ;) Also, we on the FritzBot Team have lives, jobs, families and school to attend to first, so Fritz is just something we do in our precious spare time for fun. So, we work on the things we consider priorities first, and we make the bot something we'd enjoy ourselves.

Trust me - if I was getting paid to do this everyday, I'd make the bot of your dreams, with whatever you wanted, but I don't - so I make the bot WE want to play with. :)

Balance will always remain a priority, as CrapShoot noted. Because for every e-mail/PM/post/letter/etc I get that the bot is too hard, I get just as many if not more that its too easy. For every request to make the bot more complex as far as user options go, I get just as many that its too complicated.

So, I look for the balance.

Your comments and suggestions are appreciated and encouraged, just remember that we do this for fun in our spare time, so we can't just jump and do everything everyone wants. ;)

Cheers!

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

BTW in general Fritzy news: hitsounds and ETPro map script support has just been finished, and will be in the next release! :D

Cheers!

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Didnt mean to sound like i was putting it down, and i realize it is a first release. I assumed you want feedback, however.

I like the direction of the bots in simulating people personaly, i prefer that to 'do this do that' bots.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

LMAO, Another problem I have noticed that could be a bug or just could be my computer. It starts to skip alot really fast, the sound is more affected, its not like lag its different, then the bots pause, if I kill them they start saying, I have no objcetive i can not do anything or something like that. This has happened on radar and oasis for me, I had a thought it could be (radar) when there is one radar part to be stolen and an axis kills an allie and the axis doesnt secure the parts, I thought the bots dont know where it is and they stuff up, but then I dont know why it would happen on oasis.

This normally happened when theres only one more objective, like one tank has been blown up and theres 1 more to blow up, or 1 radar parts have been secured but theres still 1 more to capture. Sometimes it does it. Ive used fritzbots for about 8 weeks and its happened about 4 times so its not a major problem for me.

EDIT: Everything in this whole topic is just something for you too look over and maybe if you didnt know of a certain bug you could maybe try to fix it. Anyway I think everyone here appreciates everything you have done with fritzbots.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Possible waypoint issue w/ a bot getting stuck somewhere that it can't get out of. I'll look through the maps to see if I missed any areas.

Thanks for the info.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Yeh happens with all the bots on the team, the whole allie team just stops, I noticed if I kill someone next to a medic the medic will heal him and give him medpacks and then just go back to standing still again.

I'm left to take on the whole axis team by myself... "sigh"

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

Ahh, that's one of the freeze bugs that's being looked into.

Re: Some things ive noticed
 

I dont have any issues with the bot at all... i could never play online and keep up with players due to my very very slow internet connection, but now with this its almost exactly like playing online without all the whining, complaining, ignorant players , hackers, and most importantly to me, no lag!! :) First release of this bot has totally blown me away didnt think a bot would be so enjoyable, would like to thank all you who work on fritzbot for making wolf fun for me to play :D excellent excellent work