mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

In response to discussion over my using Projekt Schwalbe as a sort of test bed for learning, I've decided to go ahead and post this up so you can all take a peek at my current work in progress.

Bear in mind the final objective for match completion is as of yet still being ironed out (hopefully). Also be aware that at the moment you'll have to hunt down and break several destructrable objects in the mines (the right hand path from the allied side, over the snowbanks) as well as some windows in the hangar, on the upper-left side, overlooking the catwalks. The Allies will still assault the first two major objectives successfully if you don't, but the Axis may get hung up and provide weak to no major resistance otherwise.

Having said all of that, here's the goods. Keep your fingers crossed lol.
Download link for the map itself:
http://returntocastlewolfenstein.fil...lbe_Me262;3427

Waypoints attached.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

When we get the upcoming Fritz ET release done, I'll get out a Fritz Wolf patch, that will include a fix for any issues you have on this map.

Nice work on the path, checking it out right now.

Cheers!

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

That certainly is great news.
Thanks for the heads up and taking the time to give my pet project a look-see. Feel perfectly free to pitch in your two cents, positive or negative as the case may be.

And at the risk of changing the subject - Best wishes to you and the crew on bringing FritzBot ET to life in full splendor, I'm sure its going to be one heck of a ride.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Oh - Fritz ET will be. ;) Its been a lot of hard work for everyone involved, but its just amazing what the bots can do now, and how far they've come.

Cheers!

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Ok, at long last a match CAN be completed by the bots. I had to do some minor tweaking on the drop-site paths and nodes, but a basic connect-the-dots play is now possible. Some path/route refinements garnered from precious feedback are in the works, and there may be some tweaking done to the objective/goal completion order as well.

Top billing for this update goes to CrapShoot. The pivotal fixes to the map script, the steal objective and his advice have moved things along from verging on stagnant to well on their way to becoming something worthwhile. Really couldn't have done it without you, Thank you ever so much! :)

Hopefully this isn't too much rambling, with all of little progress notes you'd think I was doing something much bigger or complex heheh. I just like to let anyone who cares keep tabs on whats what.:blush:

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Please note: this is just my thinking aloud. I really don't want to distract anyone from important work here I just want to keep my progress, or lack thereof out in the open.

Well, I must confess to being somewhat flustered. I don't know if it has anything to do with the map layout or if I'm just not grasping some of the fundamental mechanics of its usage, but attempts on my part to place routes have seemingly failed, repeatedly.

Its not terribly complicated, but having never done it successfully prior to this I can't be entirely sure why it seems not to work. It seems as though the Bots are taking the shortest path to any given objective, regardless of the placement of the Alt_roam actions. In some cases to force them to take a varied path, they would have to go the opposite direction of their goal, then hook around in a wide U-Turn to reach the alternative path - instead, they seem to just go straight there, then head from the objective to the alt_roam or be done with it at having reached the goal.
:cursing:

I've been checking official maps and waypoints for examples but it doesn't seem to be helping. I place the route in the spawn area, make the radius large enough to catch all of the spots where you or bots can drop in, set the /route_action # to the appropriate goal, drop in the actions - set them by team to task 9, (even tried setting them always active), use /route_pathactions # action# action# etc to link the alt_roams to the routes, and they seem to just ignore them. I've placed the alt roams at the start of alternate paths, at the end of them, in the middle - they just don't seem to care.

In fact with the Axis engineers - they were more inventive about reaching the bridge without routes! They would always use the mines until the station doors were blown, then fight through the station (which I thought was pretty dumb) when they were opened. I was hoping to get them to use the mines exclusively or at least in tandem with the opened station doors, but they just used the station exclusively instead. I've rolled back my .nav file to a backup copy three times now, each time trying to get a fresh take on how to make it work to no avail.

I've also tried adding an engineer camp to the footbridge to provide defense against the axis planting dynamite there - the crazy thing is when I simply placed the camp and forgot to link the aim action, the engies used it without fail. When I linked the aim action and tried to alter the action group's and active setting to keep it in use, they started ignoring it completely. I tried setting the action group to -1 and using my aiscript to activate the camp and aim action while the bridge was intact, then disable them when the bridge is destroyed - but they continued ignoring it.

Maybe I'm nuts and maybe less is more - but it seems the more I try to force variety, the less I get. Currently I'm rolled back again, to a few tweaks after the update thats attached to the thread. I'm going to keep cracking at this but I'm going to focus on making that darn engie camp work properly then worry about the routes after.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

did you set the route_team for the routes?

There may be a few things that need to be done to make that engineer work. Maybe post the navs and I'll take a look.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Hmmm thats probably the one thing I missed on my initial pass. I'm dead positive I did set it on the main allied route, but I'm also fairly positive I did not on the Axis route for the footbridge. Having rolled back the .nav out of frustration denies me the opportunity to see it first hand though.

I went ahead and re-established the routes I felt were important. I'm wondering if I can maybe add a return one from the safe to the allied boat (dingy just doesn't sound right, I'm sorry lol) or if that'd even be necessary.

I can't really tell if its impacting or not, because the Axis engineers behave exactly as before. They pour through the mines at the point where it is the only available path, then as soon as the station doors blow, they use the main bridge (head on, through the allied advance) instead.

At any rate, my current version is attached here for scrutiny. I know I've got to be missing something, or overlooking some variable somewhere, I just can't figure out what it is.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Not trying to hi-jack your thread here, but I seem to be having the exact same problem with routes on mp_science. I followed the exact sam procedure as you mentioned, and from the waypoint guide, but the Axis engineer bots always take the shortest path to the dyno objective. I left the route team as 0 (which is supposed to be for both teams, right?). However, I may try changing it to Axis only.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

route team does need to be set. route_team 0 seems be bugged.

also, make sure the alt_roams are reachable and active in the particular group you want them to be used in.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

I've had similar problems with the route system. See my earlier post in the forum "Can't make my routes work!" for some history. You need to take some care in placing the alt-roams. If that is done correctly the bots will follow your routes when they choose to do so. The keyword here is "when." They are supposed to randomly choose between the pathactions supplied to the route node, but my experience is that they will usually go the shortest way regardless, but sometimes will take your specified routes.

I have tested this many times. For a dynamite action, say, by setting all of the pathactions to the same route, running a team of 10 or so engineers with no enemies to obstruct them, and repeatedly restarting the game while following them each time to see what percentage go where. With all the pathactions the same they should always take your route, but they don't. About 80% of the time they'll take the shortest way even if it's not the specified route. Very frustrating, to say the least, when you want to control the flow of the game! I think that it's a bug that needs some looking at.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

another point I forgot to mention is the route radius. It should cover a large enough area so that they are inside it when they get their goal to be used with the route (route_action).

I've never seen the issue you describe bindle. Could it be a route radius that's too small that is the cause of this?

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Routes are team specific, you can't make them for both teams currently.

1 = Axis
2 = Allies

Routes are random, its literally determined by a random number generator as to which is picked, the code looks nearly the same as this snippet of psuedo code below:

There is no magic in which alt roam action is picked, its one line of of code. :chinese:

Make sure the Goal Group of the alt_route action is a valid one (i.e. its not -1). It can be ANY number other then -1, else its considered turned off.

Make sure the radius of the route itself encompasses where ever the bot is - the bot's WHOLE body should be well inside the radius.

Make sure the route itself points to a valid, active action goal.

Consider how you place/space the alt_roams, as I detailed in another thread.

Cheers!

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

It seems to me now, in retrospect that the majority of the variables that need to be set - I have done. My big point of confusion was the exactness of the alt-roam's placement and figuring out if they have any kind of inobvious limitations.

In the longrun I think my real issue here is that I've misconstrued the meaning of the route system alltogether. You see, in my mind I thought that you were essentially highlighting a particular path as one preferred path to a given goal. Meaning, if you have four paths, and I place a route with an Alt-roam on path #2 and #4, the bots will recognize those two paths and give them priority over other possible paths. I also loosely assumed that the bots habit of taking the shortest possible route is a reflex action when no routes (marked paths) are available. Apparently this is ALL wrong.

The reality as best I can figure is actually this:
Four valid paths to action 1 are available. Path #2 is the shortest, I add my route pointing to action 1 - and place alt-roams to designate paths #3 and #4 as optional courses for that route. What happens now is that the bots take Path #2, and at their whim decide to take #3 and #4 as optional, but available ways to get there. Giving no particular priority to them just because *I* thought they were important. The bot is headstrong, and thinks for itself which is obvious in other aspects of their behavior. I'm slowly catching on that I'm not so much teaching the bot how to play the game - the code does that - as I am giving him a cheat-sheet for where the goodies are on the map and a quick list of ways around the solid stuff heh.

At any rate. There's still a few minor quirks to be ironed out here and if anyone finds anything majorly wrong please, please, tell me so I can at least attempt a fix. The attached zip contains a minor tweak to the aiscript and miniscule variable changes in the .nav file. This will likely be my last update for the time being unless anyone offers good advice, points out a catasthrope I overlooked or later on I spot something horribly wrong myself.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

2 more bits of info and caveats that may help to clear things up more.

1. Using the route system - its all or nothing. i.e. if you have 4
paths available to reach a goal, you HAVE to define alt roams for all 4 paths, IF you want the bot to possibly use those 4 available paths. Else, if the bot finds a route for its goal, it uses only the routes defined. So, if you only have path 2 and 4 defined, and not 1 and 3, they should only use 2 and 4. If they are not using the routes you defined- then there is some problem that I need to know about and fix ASAP.

If you feel you've found a problem, the best thing to do is clearly define what the problem is: let us know exactly where its having the problem, and how to trigger it so we can see it. As Bindle can prolly atest, I have no problem going into bug squashing mode if you can give me a clearly defined problem and how to reproduce it. ;)


2. Only certain actions in Fritz Wolf are able to be routed to, and only certain classes will use them. Obviously, if you try to route an dynamite action, only engs will use that info, other classes will go and do their own goals.


The bot's pathfinder takes the shortest path to EVERYTHING, whether it is its own goal, or the route you provided, so your assumption is correct.


I know we've all been kind of unreachable lately with all of our work on Fritz ET, but I will try to help as much as I can if you can tell me where the specific problems are.

Cheers!

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

I've been focused on completing my new computer for the past two weeks, so it's taken some time to get back to waypointing. The new FX-60/Geforce 7800GT is now online!

Here's some hard data about the route difficulties that I've observed. I've seen it in all the maps where I've used routes, but the easiest one to test is my original effort, mp_zion. There is a route #0 at the Allied spawn point that directs the engineers to take either of two paths to the dynamite objective. One is outside the chapel door (alt_roam #9) and the other is inside the door (alt_roam #8. The inside route is the most dangerous, so I'd llike the bots to mostly use the outside route that goes over the boxes and down to the outdoor patio. I have the pathactions set to "8 9 9 9" which should result in the engineer bots going inside 25% of the time and to the outside 75%.

I test this by kicking all the bots, then loading a special engineering squad of 10 Allied engineers. Restart the map and watch where they go. Repeat 10 times, which gives 100 bot trips through the route random-number generator, which should be enough to get a reasonable statistical count.

1. Results for the "8 9 9 9" scenario:
bots going outside - #9 = 32
bots going inside - #8 = 68

Not even close to 75/25 is it?

2. Changed the pathactions to "9 9 9 9 9 9" which should result in 100% of the bots going via #9.
Results:
bots going outside - #9 = 23
bots going inside - #8 = 77

This should have been 100/0.

3. Changed to "8 8 8 8 8 8"
Results:
bots going outsideto - #9 = 38
bots going inside - #8 = 62

This should have been close to 0/100.

4. Changed to "8 9"
Results:
bots going outside - #9 = 47
bots going inside - #8 = 53

This is the only case that looks right. The others make no sense at all. Either I'm doing something wrong (not at all unusual) or there is a bug in the code.

I hope someone else could repeat these measurements to verifiy my findings or not. I've attached my engineering squad to save you a little time (just remove the .txt extension)

edit: noticed that I had the wrong bot file attached -- fixed!

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Typically if I want to add 'weight' to a path, I add additional alt_roams along that path. I'm not sure if adding the same alt_roam as a pathaction multiple times is even valid tbh.

So say you have 2 paths that you want them to take, and one which you want them to take 75% of the time. For this, I would have 4 total alt_roams; 3 along the preferred path and 1 along the less desireable one.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Actually you prolly could, because I only check that you define a valid alt_roam action, not what number that alt_roam action is. :blush:

That prolly could be used to "stack" the bot's preference of one path over another, without wasting precious actions.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

That was what I was trying to do, but as you can see from the data, it doesn't work.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

I checked your map to see if there was a problem with the route code.

You have 2 dynamite actions, 0 and 1. You only provide a route for dynamite action 0, NOT action 1. The other route in the allied spawn was for the document goal. No route was provided for action 1.

Remember - routes will only be used by the bot IF it points to the action the bot wants to accomplish. In this case, sometimes the bots decide they want to plant on action 1 instead of action 0, and since you have no route info for action 1, they just take the shortest path to it. Action 1 is a valid dynamite goal at map start, so it can and will be chosen by the bots at times.

When they went to plant on action 0, then they always used the route info. I tested this 100+ times, by deactivating action 1, then setting timescale to 7 and adding/kicking/re-adding 20 engs bots, with the same, correct result everytime.

By adding some route info for action 1, you will get the results your looking for.


Cheers!


BTW: I extended the route system in ET so that one route could point to multiple actions, as well as multiple paths, which helped a lot to prevent the confusion with trying to route multiple actions like in this case, as well as saving precious actions for other things.

Unfortunately, adding this ability to Wolf would break most of the current nav files, so prolly won't ever be added. :(

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Actually, it does. :) ;)

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

OK, my misunderstanding. Actions 0 and 1 are linked dynamite actions (each side of the door to be blown). I thought that meant that they would be treated as the same, single action.

If I add a separate route for action 1, what determines which route node the bots will choose? A 50-50 choice?

Then how would I weight it so that they'd select action 0 most of the time? Three route nodes for action 0 and one route node for action 1? Any simpler way?

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Even tho the 2 actions are linked to the same target, it makes sense to keep them seperate, because each are in a different area, and the paths to each are totally different, which is why I chose to create the route system that way originally.

The way Fritz works - they pick the goal first, THEN look up the route table to help plan their path to their already chosen goal.

So no, theres really not much you can do, except create a route for action 1 that follows wherever you'd like the bots to go. Or deactivate action 1 as a goal completely. Or keep action 1 it off until the docs are stolen, so that while everyone is rushing to cap/return the docs, a few allied engs will try to blow the door if it hasn't been blown already. That way they'll focus on action 0 the rest of the time.

Hope that helps.

Cheers!

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Interesting. If that works, it's definately a better way.

EDIT: I just tested it, it works.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

So it looks like in this particular case there is no way to favor one action over the other using routes. Perhaps a good way to do it for dynamiting actions would be to place several of them next to action 0 and forget the route system entirely. Then at spawn the engs will randomly select one of the dynamite actions and take the shortest route to get there. Since there will be more "clone" actions to choose from, the engs will wind up at the outside of the door more often, as desired. With a limit of 5 linked actions, it will be possible to create a weighting as much as 20%/80% if necessary. Looks like this might be the best way to do it.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

That's another good idea. I tested it and it worked as well.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

It probably only matters to me. the perfectionist, but I have fixed the route problem in mp_zion. I deleted the dynamite route and placed three dynamite actions outside the door and one inside, all linked together. This produces a 75% chance that the engineers will choose the safer outside route to blow the chapel door. I call this Version 1.1 and it is now uploaded to the filebase.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Good work - will check it out.

Cheers!

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Thanks entirely to the valued support of the foundation for public boardposting and viewers like you - the main issues are at last hammered down and done.

The routes are working, my engineer camp for the allied footbridge is now functioning to my satisfaction, and a I squeezed in a few minor navigational node tweaks as always to iron out the pathing. I made a few adjustments to my aiscript, mainly to weed out some bad actiontests that were in there due to an oversight on my part.

The only issue that may need addressing at some point, of which I am readily aware is that on occassion, firefights can erupt on the footbridge, and when the bots enter their usual jump/strafe evasion tactic there are times when they fall into the frozen river and are savagely plunged into the deadly depths of hypothermia. :blush:

I'm still kicking around ideas for how to solve this, the most obvious of which is a quick path leading out of the water and back to the shoreline so that at the worst case if they manage to swim out they'll just be wounded rather than dead from the slow hurt trigger in the map at that location. If anyone has any fancy tricks up their sleeve as to how to make them a little less bouncy in that confined space - please do share.

EDIT: Also note I'm refining a duplicate route for the allied document steal objective from the spawn flag (since they do seem to use it alright when its in their possession) and in my current internal version (what I tenatively call 4a hehe) I've set the spawn flag objective to always active - though disabled by script if the bridge is destroyed. While I'm not even sure if the route could be disabled in addition to that, it shouldn't matter since they have to spawn there to use the route anyway - and disabling the alt_roams would shut off the other routes as well, which I don't want. I suppose I could duplicate the alt_roams, but again a waste of time since no spawn at that location means no route usage anyway.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Excellent!

Gonna check it out tonight.

Cheers!

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Good deal, I hope you find it enjoyable and functional.

I'll more than likely be posting up another small revision pretty soon to include the changes in my last edit and to incorporate any additional improvements or eliminate issues that I'm notified of.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

I didn't recieve much feedback on this one, in fact, none. Understandably though, as bigger things captured the limelight in the interim - no biggie.

I'm quite a bit later on this than I expected but nonetheless here's another small tweak to the waypoint. Nothing really major this time: another rehash of the aiscript, another route added (though untested at this time it should be working more or less), a few nodes tweaked or shuffled around.

Unless you played the heck out of the earlier versions, you probably won't even notice the difference.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Yea, sorry about that - the release was a time sink. :)

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Ah not to worry. I know the team members have their hands quite full at the moment and as of late as well. You guys were really here in force when I needed ya early on, thats what counts.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Now in Pk3 form to facilitate proper overriding of the files; Simply extract this file to your Rtcw/fritzbot/ directory in order to make the fixes work.

Fixed two issues with possible stuck-bots.
First in the mines path typically used by Axis engineers to reach the footbridge wherein some would become hung up on the tunnel brace-beams.

Second in the lower part of the base tower, behind the elevator framework where occassionally allied bots would fall after death, causing medics to go berserk trying to reach them (Or in the case of a human medic reviving them - the formerly dead bot would go nuts and be unable to get back out of the space under the stairs)

Fixed two gaps in the pathnodes to assist in medics reaching fallen comrades.
First in the mines near the spawnflag

Second in the snowfield near the stone-stairwell leading into the mines.

Remaining Known Issues.
Bots on occassion get stuck under the stairs trying to reach the catwalks in the Axis hangar, due to the very small/tight space at the mid-level landing of the stairwell - it is difficult to squeeze in an extra pathnode to facilitate a smoothe transition. This is something I intend to fiddle with and correct.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Nice work Valiant. Fun to play.

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Thank you Sir. I'm still refining it a little at a time, and I'm glad to hear its good for a round or two.
:clap:

Re: mp_schwalbe (BETA) Waypoints
 

Fixed Stuck Bot Issue:

Back stairwell in the Axis hangar - added extra pathnodes on the stairs and under the stairs to help prevent bots from falling off, and help them re-orient to escape if they manage to fall anyway.

Note:
This is a minor update correcting only the stated issue, I still have a little trouble with the bots falling off of the catwalk on occassion, but until I can figure out what they're trying to reach when it happens a fix may be difficult.