CS:S is terrible
 

well Steam finally managed to end that 900 megabyte download yesterday. I mean CS:Source. So I tried it for the first time this night.

Graphically, it's okay.

But game wise, it's terrible.

I started on cs_italy. Okay, after a few minutes of architectural tourism through the map, I decided to test the player physics. Nice first impression, my player reacted in almost the same way as the old CS. The collisions with the world work as expected. I could have been fooled thinking it was just a BSP world.

But the entities physics... alas. I see a table, I want to jump on it. IMPOSSIBLE. I bounce off this shit like on a bumper everytime. I want to navigate the underpass in the wine cellar with the barrels and all, and it's like I'm in a flipper game. I want to climb the barrels: booooing. I navigate around a corner and jumps over a bicycle: booooing. Even a stupid BUCKET makes me bounce 3 meters away. I can't stand on no chair, I can't camp on no table, unless it's tied to the world. What the FUCK????????

So I decided to shoot a few hossies, to see the bullet physics. First one, headshot. Poof, the hostage falls down. No recoil, no movement, no flinch, nothing: it's as if I had just unplugged him from life, as if the bullet hadn't hit him at all. Wanted to test a bit more, so I take my glock and aim for the hand. Normally, the arm would have flinched because of the bullet's velocity. Nothing. Not a movement. I fire and fire and fire and fire, that stupid hostage goes "waa" "ouch" "eek" "aiiie" "mommy", his health goes down and down and down while he stands PERFECTLY IMMOBIL. Not a single movement. In the end I take my knife and stab that bastard. I would have expected to see blood marks on his face. Many games do it quite well. Far Cry does it very well. Even an old thing like Soldier of Fortune: Double Helix does it. Here, nothing. I can knife him, stab him, pierce the bastard with countless holes, he stays as pink and shiny as a little jesus.
Man. What a waste of code.

But my main grief is against the entity physics. Even a bucket flies in an unrealistic manner when I shoot at it ! Far Cry did a MUCH better job at physics than CS:Source !!! Here just about ANYTHING makes you bounce away from your path as much as that you have to know PERFECTLY the map and what are the "spots" to avoid and the "entities" to circle around so as to be able to play correctly ! Man, if I want to take cover, if I dodge behind a wall, or in a doorway, I am INSTANTLY bounced back on the road by some shit there !!!!!

And I've always been a climber. I love to camp at impossible places. Here, I just CANNOT stand on no fucking TABLE or no fucking BARREL !!! it's FORBIDDEN ! I can't even JUMP PAST IT, it just makes me bounce away !!!

what a pitiful shit. HL2 which I'm downloading now oughta be a LOT better, else I'll ask for a refund. Or damn it, they give me the source, and I'm'onna fix one thing or two. >:(

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

I completely agree, CS:S is a huge dissapointment. CS 1.6 and even Condition Zero are a lot more polished, and a lot more fun.


HL2 is in fact a lot better than CS:S. The physics aren't screwed up like in CS, you don't get bounced off of everything.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

I agree. Maybe not for the exact same reasons as CSS lacks in so many other ways.

But on the other hand its not bad for game developed in less than a year?

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

think the bounce of is a bug..

however.. a bullet in head and they just fall to the ground is how it is in real life.. maybe not in a action movie.. but you see.. a bullet dont make your body parts fall back.. since the bullet rather penitrate then push..

and as Hangfire said.. hl2 is better.. problably..
as small parts as arms wont do any sudden movements just bezus of the bullet.. more then ouch you shot me..

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

hmm, the hosties...
I guess they don't have ragdoll physics?!?! When you shoot other players you can see the ragdoll physics. I have no idea why they didn't give the hosties ragdoll physics as well. And I HAVE seen blood on a hostie after shooting him. Try shooting them in the eye! Must I prove it with a screenie?

the bounce problem...
As a temporary fix, use sv_bounce 0. Using this, you'll walk right through those physics props. And CS:Source uses a special entity for multi-player props, prop_physics_multiplayer. "This class is the same as prop_physics, except the runtime collisions use a more bouncy method that avoids the prediction errors normal physics objects get." - from the cstrike.fgd

The physics props are 1000% better in HL2! You can even pick up and stack props on top of each other, as well as walking on them or building yourself a little staircase. I really want to see this in MP. Be sure to check out the HLDM mod that's out!

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

All the HLDM mods so far are pretty rough and glitchy. I'm waiting for a polished one before I try it.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

bounce off is there becuse you've got latency. I guess If valve made the physics stuff happen on the client with regular updates from the server it might be better

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Heyyo,

Heh, latency issues? I don't think there are man.. I did some HL2 coop with a bud, and he had np's whipping explosive barrels at me and catching anything I threw at him. :P

I hate these school comps... so ghey, logged me out of the forums TWICE when I tried to reply to this and then erased what I wrote... so that's 1 hr wasted by the school trying to type 1 post then go back to schoolwork, hope they're happy... cause I ain't. :P

The physics are messed up on CS:S. There is a delay with physics, but they're at least accurate. On HaloPC, they tried what you said Cheesh, but the updates weren't accurate... leading to a lot of warping, and confusion, and anger... if they attempt this on CS:S? sweet jebus I hope they do a better job than on HaloPC. :P

I wish you could like, pickup the objects like on HL2, but you can't you can't nudge stuff like desks either cause of the bounce... I thought, first thing I'd do once I got CS:S was go onna server with CS_Italy, pickup the radio, and run around the map, giving CT's the impression that, "HEY! I'mma T n00b! follow the radio to pwn me..." lmao, that would've been fun... but alas, no picking up. :(

Sniping's still fake, no swaying when scoped, and actually, the semiautosniper seems to have half-decent aim when you run-n-gun... and the colt and AK? they're waaay to accurate when you run-n-gun, it doesn't deteriorate, but DESTROYS the tactics in CS:S. I've seen 1 guy run-n-gun with the colt and get 42 kills and 2 deaths... tactical? hah! more like immitate Serious Sam. :P

So yeah, your guy has godlike aim with the colt and ak, but can't kick a bucket around... the powerbalance is a little off there... ;)

Also, taking cover behind barrels doesn't work, heck, even 4 shots from a glock can knock them over, and since you can't hold the barrels infront of you like on HL2? there just there for eye candy really...

So I agree with you PMB, the physics are messed up really badly on objects.. I was also thinking of the possibilities you could do for crazy spots to get to on the map if you stacked some objects or had someone hold a barrel infront of you as a basic shield... but those little dreams of fun were crushed...

the new official bot turtlerock's upgrading for CS:S will probably make CS:S a LOT more tollerable..

Until the fixes and bug fixes of some of the stuff I mentioned above? I'll probably avoid CS:S entirely.... I've still gotta beat They Hunger anywho... just aboot done chapter 2. :D

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

short reply:

hl2 physics rule.

css physics suck.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

So one or some of you coders should code the HL2 phys_props back into CS:Source. There seems to be a problem with transferring all the phys data via MP games, hence the prop_physics_multiplayer entity. Of course you'd have to wait for the full SDK due out this next week.
As I quoted in my first post:
prop_physics_multiplayer. "This class is the same as prop_physics, except the runtime collisions use a more bouncy method that avoids the prediction errors normal physics objects get." - from the cstrike.fgd
This entity was used because VALVe had alot of problems with lag when it came to transferring phys data. Maybe we can learn something from that HLDM mod once the source comes out?

I guess this is what I'm trying to ask: "Is this even possible/worthwhile?"

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

hmm never tried hl 2 multiplayer .. ? Can't remember how to use it
you gotta make some compromises though, man.. how would you get extremely nice physics across a network (real time problems and there are limits on the amount of data that can get sent)

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Heyyo,

Heh, I dunno, HL2 coop worked fine.. until it crashed. I guess they never completed the HL2 networking code since they dropped the multiplayer side of the project (well, for the time being at least...).

What happened is I died from 1 explosive barrel, followed me bud, he blew me up with another by whipping it right at me... and then I died, and it crashed seconds later. :P

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

"how would you get extremely nice physics across a network"

Prediction. Client-side prediction.
The server only tells the clients about the impact parameters. Entities involved, origin, velocity, date, and server's random seed state. If the physics are 100% well-made (i.e, completely FPS-independent), all the clients should end up in the exact same state, no matter their machine or net connection.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

hmmm, I have noticed that clients screens end up different in CS:Source.
What I mean is, say I get naded... On my screen (client), I get blown up on top of a crate. And on my room-mate's screen (client), who is watching me, my body ends up on the ground next to the box.

So I guess what you're saying, PMB, is that the client-side prediction needs to be improved to be able to use HL2 physics in CS:Source?

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Heyyo,

Heh, yeah. I think they dummed down the physics in CS to lower the sizes of packets. For the dead bodies thing? that's a great example of how they diddn't fully implement the physics calculations into the game, to lower packet sizes. Same is done in HaloPC. When bodies die, they don't sync them so that's 1 less thing the game has to worry about.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Was this done to still allow 56K users to be able to play on-line?

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

well, since only players and bullets can interact with objects affected by physics, why would they need to send any more information?

I understand that each machine of course has to make the exact same predictions about the behaviours of each item affected by either players or bullets, but i don't really understand why this should be such a problem.

My logic tells me that if all the clients have the exact same information, then all the clients would behave identical. This isn't quantum physics...

I understand that I must have missed something, since this isn't already working as I predict it should be able to... but i can't see what. Can someone enlighten me?

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

when cs:s was in beta stages, i had a good play test of it, and i found that it was possible to jump on objects like barrels and stuff but when i ran into them i'd bounce or go right through the object this was around aug 29

so it seems that the latest updates may have changed this?

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

I played the beta when it barely started and it's exactly like how pmb said it was except the beta was only on de_dust so no hosties..

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

You can stand on the props, but not very well. You jiggle around everywhere, it'd be like shooting from a ladder!
There are some console commands I've yet to play around with...
something about pushaway_force and a couple others...
I'll see if I can try this out sometime tomorrow.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Look, if you know, at an instant T, the position, shape, center of gravity and mass of an object, and if you know the position, direction and velocity of a force that you apply to it, you can compute precisely what will happen to this object over time, right ?

Client-side prediction should work just that way. It doesn't - it shouldn't - require any more parameters to be sent over the network.

Unfortunately many game physics involve randomness (which is something completely irrelevant in pure physics but very handy to simplify computations a lot), and this is why physical phenomenons differ between computers (i.e, you explode a barrel, and on some PC it would land somewhere, while on the other it would land elsewhere, given the exact same initial conditions). This is why randomness has to be synchronized between all clients. To do this, one very simple way is to send the server's random seed state over the network. Because "randomness" doesn't intrinsically exist in a PC. Randomness is in fact just a math suite, where the number to come is computed using the number that came out already. The random "seed" is just the current position on this suite, i.e this number. Not two PCs can output a different random result if they share the same random seed. This latter phrase look weird, but it makes sense ;)

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

you don't even need random numbers involved. When calculations are running at different fps on different machines, the rounding errors using floating point arithmetric will sum up and in special situations ( player hitting the edge of a crate, a barrel hitting an edge of a wall ) , you will get different results. I once wrote a little simulating program using simple strings and masses to simulate simple things, and it wasnt that easy to avoid oscillations and stuff due to this inaccuracy of the calculations. So I guess this might be a main reason.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

PMB, the problem is that when a player walks in front of one of these flying barrels, lag will cause an error. On one computer he may not be in front of it, and on the other he might be past it.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

In fact that should also not be even a problem. Because the server should know the exact position of the players as well. From a server side of view you can calculate the reaction to the player and send this data to the client.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Heyyo,

Like I mentioned before guys, HaloPC does pretty much what stefan said above, just minus the accurate calculations... I'm sure this is why valve took this approach. ;)

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

I am saying the problem is with client-side prediction and lag. That is why a barrel hitting a player could cause odd effects.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Lag as you say shouldn't cause any problem but for the client. The only machine on which the game really happens is the server. If the server updates its clients correctly, then all clients will be in the exact same state. Bear in mind that lag also means a time shift, hence it's not ONE entity which is out of sync but the WHOLE client pack which is late about the server. But minus that time shift all the entities and the forces applied to them should be in the exact same state, which is why accurate client-side prediction is more than possible, it should be a must for such games.

*edit*
If you want me to be more accurate in the answer, I'll just say that in fact what can cause the problems you are talking about is not the lag, but any attempt of lag compensation.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

I found a quote in the SrcSDK documentation related to this:

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

How did the guy from SVEN-COOP manage then? He has multiple AI entities running around all at once, surely Valve could fix this problem with the physics?

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

who said he did? Afaik the sven-coop just released details on their plans. Not on how they encounter difficulties implemtenting them... if they do succeed, i am sure everybody (especially valve) wants to know what they did.

CS:S is Too Good
 

Well it's been almost half a year since that CSS it's coming out from the very
first beta till the stupid updates from Steam Valve i just don't know why they
seemed so rushing in making this CSS. Like everybody says better stick to the'
good ol CS 1.6 is the best for game play. CSS is sucks on play it's nice because
the added graphics and some couple texture others is shit one thing always wondering why they never put the bots inside the CSS itself specially after the
official bots euphoria they are nice until now people still can't play with bots. THANKS for the underground people who hacked CSS because it comes with bots. I don't mind if CSS left intact just like CPL left by great team turned unto Counter-Strike Pro because of what??? because they know CSS isn't as good as it used to be. Sigh o_O

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

I think CS:S isnt that bad at all ... grenades are better, they are used more tactically, the shield has gone ( or havnt I just noticed it ) and somehow a bit of that old feeling was coming back when I played ít. you always have to get used to new version, but I think this one isnt that bad described in some posts here. ok, still not hitting anything with the awp, but well, I gotta rtain, if I had time ...

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Heyyo,

Well yeah, the sheild is gone, and grenades aren't so fake (you don't get damaged by them now if you're hiding on the other side of a wall) but those are like the only 2 upsides...

Hitboxes are really messed, you're more likely to kill someone by aiming at their legs than at their chest...

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

yeah the grenades , shotguns are way better in css than cs

i love smoke , smoke gren is my fav now

used to only use it in cs to create lag for my enemies :D

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Eeeh? Is it fake that grenades hurt you when you sit on the other side of a wall?
Well, depends on the wall, but you will get damaged by a grenade sitting behind any normal wall in any building.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

CS's grenades are HE, but they're about as powerful as a small jar of gasoline going off in CS. A HE should realistically blow a person to bits if they're close to it, and go clean through thin/weak walls. Realism isn't what they went for with that weapon, they went for gameplay balance.

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

Yup it's true but all in all CS is still the best FPS game in the universe and
nothing comes close to it till now. I've been playing many FPS games but
i never get the feeling on CS "the feeling as you were some terrorist or
good guy with all the weapons, the team and many more and the bots" it's really make some ordinary feeling that's why CS still going strong and hope it'll always be :P. But i still prefer the ol CS it's rock over all de place.8) THANKS

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

ofcourse no one comes near the cs feeling then cs..
cs is t damn plain IMO.. I prefer battlefield1942/desertcombat.. and bf2 will kick ass..

its time for cs people to realise there is other games out there.. but we dont want an cs whiners.. so they can keep playing cs-..

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

I've become quite fond of DF Joint Operation: Typhoon Rising, when I'm not playing Source or taking it back to cs1.6!

Re: CS:S is terrible
 

CS people realizes that many good games out there BF 1942 is good but
only with multiplayer i cannot imagine how would boring am i to play on
huge maps with bots. For multiplayer yeah good, but still i prefer CS on FPS
and build more room for convenience.=)