.:: Bots United ::. - Open-Source , how to handle?

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.:: Bots United ::. (http://forums.bots-united.com/index.php)

- The RealBot 'Source' (http://forums.bots-united.com/forumdisplay.php?f=52)

- - Open-Source , how to handle? (http://forums.bots-united.com/showthread.php?t=1382)

stefanhendriks

15-04-2004 18:55

Open-Source , how to handle?

Read the news, and tell me your ideas...

currently i have in mind:
- i release the source code some day
- i have a thread on this forum what things need to be worked on , this list of 'todo's' will be updated due testing/information/requests by users.
- people download the source and can choose:
-- work on it alone, make an own version (create own website, distribute it, credit me for using it, aka like the POD bot off-spring)
-- help developing RealBot itself (which i encourage!), work on the 'todo list' as mentioned above.

Code changes:
- can either be published on the forum. I will create a seperated forum section for this. As an example a form thread title could be like:

FIX: Bot's shooting hostages

Then in the forum thread you will have it like:

On line y of file z, change the following code

Code:

some code

into:

Code:

some other code

Etc.

I imagine a team should be assigned in order to keep the 'real source' updated to get releases done. People could either change their version by adapting the changes/fixes/adds by applying them from the forum. Or they wait and an (weekly?) update will be used.

Look people, i am serious about this. I want RealBot to be 'free' , i also want it to develop it further. I will not stop developing RealBot, but i will also not release the source when there is nothing organized so i don't just release it for the sake of it. I want to release the source with a solid purpose.

Ava3ar

15-04-2004 19:12

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

sounds like a good idea, i wouldnt mind being on the official team, thus expanding my knowledge and giving the off-spring's something to aspire to

[+Duracell-]

15-04-2004 20:25

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

This would be cool...although I don't know too much C++ :( I've only taken a basic course in Java, and I have a C++ book, so I'm willing to learn!

I just need something to push me in the right direction...botman's readme, maybe? *looks*

davek

15-04-2004 20:33

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

sounds like an excellent idea, stefan. unfortunately, i don't think i know enough programming to be able to help much.

it would also be nice to get updates when u are working on other things :D

i stopped playing CS online years ago, the only reason i play now is to test out the bots you made. i find it really interesting what you have done so far. keep up the good work.

stefanhendriks

15-04-2004 21:40

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

thanks davek, good to hear. You know, i actually play still cs because i am working on RealBot. I got lucky when i found a good on-line server for myself later. If i never worked on RB, i probably did not even play CS anymore.

The coding experience you need to write stuff for the bot is actually not that much imo. The very basics are:

- understanding of 3d a bit (you can think a bit in 3d)
- you should understand how a program works (line by line), you have to think like a program.
- know the basics of C (C++ not nescesary!)
- get yourself a (free) compiler.

Actually i think the following code is understandable to most people aging from 15 years old.

Code:

a = a + 2;

except for the ;, it looks like a normal math formula. When A is 3, then the sum becomes:

A = 3 + 2
A = 5

And this was actual code, very simple code of course.

When i want to code sollution, like handling buttons. I think in small steps. What do you do as a human to open the door? Lets pretend you are stupid, dumb and you really think doors _only_ open by touching it. What will you do when it does NOT open by touching it? You will probably think WHY, and yo uwill find the SWITCH. Now, thats what RB does too:

- when door is not opening when touching
- find a switch
- go to it
- use/touch it
- go back to door and resume path

when you have come this far, you did 40% of the work. Now you need to know what variables and functions are available (read-> instruments/tools) to make this work.

Anyway, i always comment my code a lot, so i think eventually you will understand and even able to apply patches.

Nova	15-04-2004 22:17

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

stefan, for the kind of thing that U have in mind i think CVS would be a good thing. You could put the source on the CVS in read-only, so that any users that has a BU email adress can look at it, and then u can specify specific people that can write ... if something changes, the next time u do an update on your local computer it will tell you that stuff has changed. If you dont like the change ... fair enuf .. just go back to an earlier revision and delete the other one :)

CVS is really nifty !

stefanhendriks

15-04-2004 22:25

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

I will look into this CVS thing. But it also stops a lot of people to try on bots when they have to download multiple programs just to get a source. Anyway, i could set up a tutorial for that too. I think we need an own CVS server for that Nova? Is that possible?

T!m	15-04-2004 22:42

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanhendriks

[/code] .....You will probably think WHY, and yo uwill find the SWITCH. Now, thats what RB does too:

- when door is not opening when touching
- find a switch
- go to it
- use/touch it
- go back to door and resume path

about the switch thing, does it only (as you discribe) work for doors or wil the bot also use camera's, elevators(button activated), ect. ?
I mean can you split them into different catogoties or will rb see it as one!?

I guess it can be split other wise i can imagine the bot get pretty confiused by ex. camera's.
or am i totally off cource now!?! :o

stefanhendriks

15-04-2004 22:56

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

T!m, i know you want to know, but this is not really the thread to handle it.

To answer your question:
- it only knows for doors. Only when obstructed. It does not know what an elevator/camera is.

A camera will not obstruct a bot, thus it will not find a button for it either.

TruB	15-04-2004 23:11

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

sounds to me PMB will have something more to do..

davek

16-04-2004 09:37

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanhendriks

- understanding of 3d a bit (you can think a bit in 3d)
- you should understand how a program works (line by line), you have to think like a program.
- know the basics of C (C++ not nescesary!)
- get yourself a (free) compiler.

u make it sounds so easy :)

i could probably do some stuff. i have all those things u mentioned, cept for the compiler, which i cant imagine is hard to obtain.

i suppose if your comments are good and u have other documentation, i could probably work on it. it would be a good way to get some practice in coding too, since i havent done it in a while. hm. might give me something to do at work too :D

Serj	16-04-2004 09:51

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Hello, Stefan!
First, thank you for your work, once more! =)

Second, I aprove your decision to make your project as open source! This is a GOOD idea! And I think the sourceforge.net is a good place for it. 8)

From the official sourceforge docs:

"CVS, Concurrent Versions System, is a tool used by many software development teams to store their source code in a centralized location. CVS allows everyone to obtain a copy of this source code (i.e. everyone is provided read-only access) and allows developers of the software to also make changes to the source code stored in that central location.
...

SourceForge.net provides a number of services to projects hosted on SourceForge.net which are related to CVS.
First, SourceForge.net provides each project with their own CVS repository. All developers on a project are automatically, as a function of the SourceForge team management system, granted the permissions to commit changes to that repository. Only registered development team members (i.e. the members of the project team on SourceForge.net) may write to a project CVS repository. Developers will need to have both a CVS client package and a compatible SSH client."

MusicMan

16-04-2004 16:03

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Where do you find all the variables and functions you can use Stefan, that is actually one of the biggest problems I have when I try to code bots:)

Thanks in advance

MusicMan

edit: Sorry about this offtopic post, but it's just because you mentioned something about it in this thread;)

Onno Kreuzinger

16-04-2004 18:52

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

i would say that, if you do not want cvs, you must atleast use patch and diff, in order to have some change of importing code easy and understandable.
a diff looks like this:

Code:

 diff -uHr vdr-1.2.0.patched/svdrp.c vdr-1.2.0/svdrp.c

 --- vdr-1.2.0.patched/svdrp.c   2003-04-27 16:21:07.000000000 +0200

 +++ vdr-1.2.0/svdrp.c   2003-06-06 21:34:03.000000000 +0200

 @@ -726,7 +726,10 @@

    else if (recordings) {

           cRecording *recording = Recordings.First();

           while (recording) {

 -                   Reply(recording == Recordings.Last() ? 250 : -250, "%d %s", recording->Index() + 1, recording->Title(' ', true));

 +                                                                            cIndexFile *oIndex = new cIndexFile(recording->FileName(), false);

 +                                                                            const char *sTime = IndexToHMSF(oIndex->Last());

 +                                                                            Reply(recording == Recordings.Last() ? 250 : -250, "%d %s\t<%s>", recording->Index() + 1, recording->Title(' ', true), sTime);

 +                                                                            delete oIndex;

                         recording = Recordings.Next(recording);

                         }

           }

the first line shows the comand used to generate the diff, its very easy to make and all tools needed are 2 executables available for all operating systems (most compilers do come along with "diff" and "patch" allready)

i know of good and big/complex software which is developed by using a mailinglist and diffs/patches and no cvs. since the software is widely used the mailinglist has quite some traffic (20-50 mails per day).
but this assumes everybody uses a mailer and has some basic knowlege how to handle larger amounts of emails per day :)

zyrain

16-04-2004 21:12

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

IF you want an alternative to CVS check out: Codeville

[WPSC]Silver Ghost

16-04-2004 21:23

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

A very interesting thread. I would like to go back to programming again, but I'm a bit rusty...I used to do assembler, fortran,algol and cobol...that was a long time ago. Seems this project is a good idea, I will have to pick up the threads.. what about classes and data structures, variables...where do we get those from...so many questions....it's a challenge :)

FrostyCoolSlug

17-04-2004 02:54

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Sounds like a great idea. I would love to be involved with this, i have some C++ experiance, and bot compiling experiance as well. I use CVS in other projects i work on, and i also know that Sourceforge is a pain in the ass to use. (no offence intended, i have 3 projects on there, i've been forced to avoid the SF CVS for various reasons)

for (int a = 0; a < 256; a++) { print "If you understand this, you \"own\"\n"; }

:D

minorgod

17-04-2004 05:58

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

I'd love to help too. I've got some C++ and tons of PHP, JavaScript (hate it) and ActionScript (Flash...hate it..sort of). I'm game...I've always wished I could look at some well-documented bot source code so I could learn how to write bots myself. I've been following the RealBOt development thread since it was just a text file. I think programming is fundementally the same in most common languages in the Post-C era...it's mostly a matter of different syntax doing the same types of things. If your code is well commented I'm pretty sure I can figure it out.

As far as a CVS system, I've never used one and have no opinion. If I can find good directions, I'm sure I can set one up. It does seem like almost a necessity for this type of project. I also second the motion for Sourceforge as the place to do it if you decide to go with a CVS. They are established, time-tested and have lots of developers mulling about.
__________________
Nowhere does science promise emancipation.

Nova	17-04-2004 06:55

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrostyCoolSlug

for (int a = 0; a < 256; a++) { print "If you understand this, you \"own\"\n"; }
:D

translated into english:

Why would you want to print that sentence to the screen 256 times ? :)

V or 'Tex

17-04-2004 09:01

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Moreover, don't you have to actually call the CS function in order to get that to display?

@$3.1415rin

17-04-2004 09:36

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

your compiler won't like that one ... at least if that's supposed to be C/C++

@V or'Tex : maybe he's redirecting the output :)

stefanhendriks

17-04-2004 16:46

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/i...0documentation

Onno Kreuzinger

17-04-2004 17:28

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

ok, i propose going to berlios.de (same system as SF, but way better service) for source code hosting, it looks like a well tought out system (SF deluxe so to say) and our CVS, like all CVS, sucks big time on the serverside, is more unsecure than ftp, more complicated than emacs and less documented than the microsoft protocolls :(

stefanhendriks

17-04-2004 17:37

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

i will look into that. If all else fails to convince me, i will just do it 'my way' :)

Onno Kreuzinger

17-04-2004 18:33

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

well as sh*t happens often, berlios.de is n/a today, i downloaded some files last week, but heck today the whole site is just dead, i.e. timeout on connect...

Hacker Harry

17-04-2004 21:18

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

i welcome your thoughts, stefan!
and i entirely agree with Serj to make this a sourceforge project.

Best Bytes®,
Harry

Ava3ar

18-04-2004 05:22

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

SF is annoying, might as well scream steal me now.net,

i think (cant remember name soz)'s idea was the best to have a safe version that is only accessable/editable to people in a small group, and a wide version (say .2 behind or somet) for the rest of the community, that way work gets done and the latest stuff is kept hidden, and anyone else can have a look at old code and tinker with it

stefanhendriks

18-04-2004 12:21

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

I also read in the pod_mm thread that there is a way to have a liberal person who gets all changes and who is in charge of distribution and the like.

Perhaps thats the most safe way for me too, i will keep in control of what gets released officially. Yet we all (especially the team members) submit changes to the code.

@$3.1415rin

18-04-2004 12:27

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

I havnt made that bad experiences with sf.net. OK, you gotta keep the dates in mind where they do their server maintenance, but the other time it's pretty ok

Nova	18-04-2004 12:54

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanhendriks

Hmm, i dont really get this.

You dont really want open-source, you want something like a half thingy.

True OpenSource to me =
ANYONE is able to see ANY part of the code that is considered to be the program (or library or whatever)

@$3.1415rin

18-04-2004 12:59

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Stefan, Using CVS you can also always go back a few changes, so you can still control it. An additional thread here in the forum might still be useful to talk about what to change, though

stefanhendriks

18-04-2004 13:17

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Nova, you mis understood.

The source is available to all, you should be able to download it and do whatever you want with it. I am talking about how to handle its progress when multiple programmers want to work on this project.

At the very top of this thread i have already said this:

- you either create your own offspring
OR
- you work as a team on RealBot itself and as a team improve this

Eventually it has to be released, and since there are mutliple wishes to do with the code i suggest there is a seperated forum with all the explenations and found bug-fixes so everybody can just choose and fix what they want to fix, add what they want to add etc.

As for the official releases (they will continue) i have to keep track somehow what fixes are made and there has to be some organized manner so we don't get redundant work here.

stefanhendriks

18-04-2004 13:36

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/i...20Distribution

AND:

http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/i...Team%20Members

stefanhendriks

18-04-2004 13:36

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

I also have seen a CVS page has come up about CVS. I will look into this. Its interesting. Btw wiki rules ;)

Onno Kreuzinger

18-04-2004 14:36

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

Ok,
ppls Nova and me got our cvs working, i allready checked in the filebase and the wiki for people interessted in working.
See this wiki document to learn what our cvs is all about:
http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/index.php/UseCvs

cheers Onno

stefanhendriks

18-04-2004 14:51

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

I can't get it working though :(, i am trying for 1.5 hours already

@$3.1415rin

18-04-2004 14:55

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

maybe a problem with the users, onno ? cause my passwd from the email account is rejected all the time, I already put me to the cvs user group for testing, since poponly didnt look so promising, but that wasnt the reason neither

Onno Kreuzinger

18-04-2004 16:18

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

i do not have your passwords, i trusted webmin that he could copy them :-(

well then pls. mail me username/password i should enter for you: ok@bots-united.com, i will then setup accounts for you, also anyone who thinks he could need commit access pls. tell me.

i will revert the re-use of known usernames.

Onno Kreuzinger

18-04-2004 16:19

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

did anonymous access work ? (is the client working?)

@$3.1415rin

18-04-2004 16:32

Re: Open-Source , how to handle?

I checked out the filebase anonymously, so that's obviously fine

I'm sending you a pm about username passwd

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