What's Carp Got Cooking ?

[the Carpenter]

TS_NORMANDIN (dev month 7)
Opinions are welcome:
Top floor hallways:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_normandin001.jpg
The courtyard with Carps special animated leaf sprites:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_normandin002.jpg
Carps special windows:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_normandin003.jpg
The library:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_normandin004.jpg
Whaddaya guys think ?

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

8o

I kneel down before thy, o immense guru...
there's no way I can ever come close to this in my pitiful mapping attemps
You're becoming just as good as 3D_Mike
it's amazing

[SoUlFaThEr]

ooo now theres a compliment!

i am only seeing one pic tho.......might be my browser acting funny like it is right now tho.......

i know these pics from NBox anyway :)

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

One suggestion (but perhaps you've already taken this in account) : be sure to reference all your textures in the materials.txt file, so that they play the right bullet hit sound in game (for example, that all your "racks" - the yellow things where people stock up their stuff, dunno how that's called in english - play a metal sound when you shoot them)

That'll be a lovely deathmatch map

[SoUlFaThEr]

its not a good idea to edit the materials txt as a mapper because it overwrite the one you have........best to have an extra .txt with that info in it...so the guy can copy and paste it into his materials.txt.......i got serious complaints from many for doing this with a map i made and pimped.

[rob]

they are called lockers

[the Carpenter]

I've never done a materials text, but I ain't opposed either.
I'll take that into consideration.
p.s. Thankyou for the praises, PMB, but I have a long way to go before I reach guru status. ;)
Meh ... if only I knew how to model.

[SoUlFaThEr]

yeah thats what i am seriously missing.......models......but i got the Doener King making me models when i need them :) he does a good job

made my footballs in raidernation

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

what?? you make all your textures yourself and you NEVER classified them according to their material ??

your maps could sound SOOOO MUCH cooler if everything sounded the way it's meant to !!

So far everything in your map must be sounding like "concrete" material (which is the default). I tell you, just make the wood sound like wood, the rock sound like rock, the metal sound like metal, the glass/computer stuff sound like glass... the maps will FEEL real. Try it man. Try it. That's what makes all the difference, when in a firefight you hear bullets doing ricochets on stuff, piercing the metal, tearing the wood...


Take that CS map de_train. Some neat shit in this map is the sound ambience when you're ducking under a train and enemy bursts go ricochet on your wagon : KABALABALAM - it sounds concave, it sounds metallic, it sounds like a real wagon. It does not sound "tac tac tac" like the concrete ricochet sound.

The guys coding Half-Life 2 understood that pretty well : in HL2, everything you'll create, every block you'll draw in your map will get attributed a MATERIAL. It's the contrary of what's happening with HL1: in HL you put textures first, and you worry about the material after, and still - most often only if you have time.

Don't miss that out. Test it once and you won't ever forget to do it anymore.

[the Carpenter]

Roger that !

[SoUlFaThEr]

carp...add a textfile......with your adjustments in it.......to allow the person to copy and paste these into his materials.txt

peeps get upset if you overwrite thier materials text that may ruin a bunch of thier maps.

also the negative thing is that there is a damn limit to how many entires can be made Pierre :(

i dont know if steam even has a materials text.......the one i have in there was the one i used in brainwash_f.....see......i overwrote it if it was there.....


can someone send me thier materials text......mine is missing in both my 1.5 and 1.6 DAMMIT!! LOL

[the Carpenter]

The sounds changed things, but only a little bit.
The lockers sound a little better, for sure, when you shoot them.
This will make a much bigger difference in ts_crumbled though, cuz all my dirt sounds like cement still.
Cheers guys !
I made leaps & bounds in leaf-world yesterday.
I'll post screenies later, but for now, I have to get my taxes done !!! >:(
*EDIT*
I'm getting $1100.oo back this year ! 8D
Before & after shots:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tree02.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tree03.jpg
Much better, no ?

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

Much better, no ?

o_O I'll say...
and besides, this looks absolutely unique. I've never seen a mapper use leaves that looked like the ones you use. Too bad this is not a CS map, hehe...

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

It's not only about the gunshots dude... think about the footsteps :)

If you make a room with a wooden floor... such as your library (currently it's not, but to me you *should* change this and make a wooden floor in the upper level of this library.) or if you walk on grass, dirt or whatever, you'll enjoy these sounds.

You can't really figure what it'll be if you're alone in the map testing it, walking around, stopping, pointing your gun somewhere and shooting at stuff. You need a bunch of players running and fragging happily together. You'll see you can even locate a player by his footsteps. It's a non neglectable asset for a tactical deathmatch game.


*edit*
saw your new pics
o_O
I'm out of words
*/edit*

*edit 2*
@SoUlFaThEr: I've uploaded my materials.txt file for CS 1.6 (should work for CS 1.5 too) for you in the Filebase, look it up in the "Other Stuff" section...
*/edit*

[the Carpenter]

o_O I'll say...
and besides, this looks absolutely unique. I've never seen a mapper use leaves that looked like the ones you use. Too bad this is not a CS map, hehe...Cheers !
I gave up the animated bits though.
Now they just sit there, rather than blow around.
It just looked too tacky/cartooney.
I'm way happier with the results this way.
Waiting on a compile now that should see more improvements.
I might consider converting it into a CS map. ;)

@ PMB
I know how the whole texsound thing works with footsteps, etc.
The lockers ping now though, rather than the cement default.
It's true. It changes the impact sounds, as well as the footsteps. :D
I playtested with bots to hear the sounds in action.
Hmmm ... wood in the library ?
I may just look into that too.
Cheers !

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

What I don't like about these different footstep sounds is one bug that has never been fixed AFAIK, but the materials.txt has nothing to do with it. The bug is that when you jump from a metal container or whatever into the sand, you'll hear a metal sound when you hit the ground... :(

@Carpenter: You even had the leaves animated?!?! 8o *me fainting* Well, it looks *cough* nice *cough* as it is, even w/o anims!
Oh, and if you ever convert this to CS, make it bot-compatible, eh? :D

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

What makes these leaves unique is the fact that Carp understands perfectly the nuance of colors there is in a leaf, between the light green and the dark green. Hmm... I'm wondering... if there should not be some way... (I'll pronounce an heresy here!) to make them even better.

Actually if you consider the biological reason for the color of a tree leaf, it's obviously the chlorophylla. What is noticeable is that the pigment is present in large quantities on the TOP side of the leaf (the one exposed to sun) whereas it is less present on the bottom side of it. Leading to the recto side of the leaf being dark green, and the verso side light green.

What you have here are dark green leaves surrounded by a "border" of light green.

Just this way it looks fantastic but when you get closer and pay more attention to it there might be something not natural here.

Have you tried doing a sprite where some leaves are completely dark green (the ones in front, those you see the recto of), some leaves are coloured with a lighter green (the ones you see the back of) and some leaves with mixed colors (mostly the ones on the side of the sprite, the ones that are seen in "diagonal") ?

I may be a complete jackass here, by asking to mellow something that's already close to perfect, but hey, it's my nature :D

[the Carpenter]

Ideally ... I agree with you.
I may work further on the colors still.
I really want to keep them animated too.
They look much sexier when they flutter.
(Which also changes the highlites in the process.)
heh heh
They'll get better.
You better ... you better ... you bet.
Cheers !

[SoUlFaThEr]

@pmb thanks for the materials .txt

looking prety Carp :) you da man

[Thirdeye]

yes... the man indeed :)

[the Carpenter]

I've got the animations working again.
SO much staring at leaves ! LOL
Do any of you guys have the Specialists MOD installed ?
I'd love to playtest a bit with some humans, for a nice change.
Lemme know !
Cheers !

[sPlOrYgOn]

That shit is amazing!!! 8o :D
Just took a look out my window and the trees I have have leaves that look almost exactly like those!! :D

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

I've got The Specialists installed.. for sure.... but I'm a mind-bogglingly high ping bastard (it would be suicidal to reach your server by the other side of the planet on a 56k)

[the Carpenter]

Yes it would !
Ube pinged at 4500 when we tried to run around in it. ;)

p.s. Cheers, sPlOrYgOn !

[the Carpenter]

Here's what I made today:

http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tss01.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tss02.jpg

It's for a non-official contest at the TS forums.
Mum's the word on these pix.
(The judges aren't supposed to know who they're voting for.)
Nothing's final yet, of course.

What do ya guys think, so far ?

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

überl33t.

Makes me think of a gangsters movie. I'd rather see a night ambience, a smoky bar, with feeble lights on the candle's branches... and a band of enhatted mafiosi discussing their next coup in the dark around one of these tables in a low voice... then a lonesome weirdo enters, Tarantino-like, and the grand bullettage show can begin =)

[SoUlFaThEr]

i agree with the lighting part...a bit darker and mysterious could work nicely here.

whats up with over 900 wPoly and over 9000 ePoly!!!!!!!! jesus!!!!!!

[the Carpenter]

1000 w_poly is acceptable in the TS community, so I flirt with it every chance I get.
9000 e_poly though, is just a whole lot of chairs, bottles, fans & blinds.
Like said ... only a days work.
It'll take me some time to straighten it out a bit. ;)
Cheers !

[SoUlFaThEr]

are null-ing the bottoms of all legs and everything touching the floor?

take out at least 3 chairs from every table......but therefore add things to the tables(salt pepper shakers..napkin rack...maybe a menu or 2......and a stack of menus by where the workers will stand)

it looks really sharp, but not lived in or used.

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

but therefore add things to the tables(salt pepper shakers..napkin rack...maybe a menu or 2......and a stack of menus by where the workers will stand)in fact, I'd rather see ashtrays, newspapers, beer glasses and bottles of jack. The night ambience is mandatory here.

[SoUlFaThEr]

i have a kickass ashtray model :) ask

[the Carpenter]

Yup ... I nulled it ... I nulled it good. ;)
The chairs are models & yup, some must go.
I still have to mess the place up, of course.
Ashtray from a SoUlFaThEr map ?
I may already have it, in that case. :D

[SoUlFaThEr]

the one from industry west i believe :)
there others too......maybe in boxoffice

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

func_breakables!
func_breakables!
don't forget the func_breakables!! 8D

/me jumps up and down

[SoUlFaThEr]

all the chairs!!!!!!!

watch this Carp:

make all the legs func breakables, make the chairseat and backs to funcdoors that are triggered by the breakeables.......set the LIP to the distance to the floor so the seats fall to the floor then !!!!!!! LOL

this works btw.......its the lip and speed setting that will take time to get right or get to look right :)

[Zacker]

I have never edited the materials txt either. Thanks for the tip PMB:)

That looks very cool Carp, quite high poly though.

are null-ing the bottoms of all legs and everything touching the floor?
The floor would be a world brush, right? Then it would not help nulling faces totally covered by it, would it? Since the face is totally covered by a world brush, I thought it would be automaticly stripped way during HLBSP?

All the experiments I did while writing the r_speeds guide showed that nulling fx. bottoms of legs on tables would not decrease w_poly.

[Thirdeye]

that might be true... but theirs still my two favorite ways to get arond this... one pixel off ground , fun_wall etc etc

but nulling a brush when you make it helps ... couse you only place textures that NEED to be seen ...

[SoUlFaThEr]

im still new with the null thing really.......im placinf it on every face i cant see just like i used to do with SKY before null appeared

Zacker if you know a bunch on this pplease provide us with some help on it......

[Zacker]

I have a lot of thoughts about it, but I am not certain that they are valid.

Until I did my previous mentioned experiments I also nulled the way you do. No matter what, it cant harm to do it that way:)

I have written most of what I know in the r_speeds guide. My site is down because of too many downloads of SoW, but here is the null texture part:

The null brush - your friend:) ** History&general info The null texture is one of the most important r_speed reduction tools. And since it's not very hard to use, its very recommended if you learn this section.

The null texture is something, which was first, introduced a couple of years after HL1. It came with Merls modified version of Zoners modified Qtools. Remeber you should NEVER use the standard compile tools which come with hammer, for your own sake:) You can download the newest version of Merls right here (http://www.thefuture.dk/nubiguide/zhlt253-17.zip) from The Future. (http://www.thefuture.dk)

The pourpose of the null texture is simply to lower your maps w_poly, making it run smoother. In old days most people just used the sky texture. When you applied that to a face it would not generate any polygons, or at least only one per face.

The problem is that even though the sky texture did lower the w_poly, it did still decrease the fps(opposite of what we want). Then Merl came up with the genius Null texture which will make the face TOTALLY unrendered.

So every face with that texture on it will not generate any lag.


Advantages

The Null texture have 2 advantages:

1. The primary reason, lower w_poly/r_speeds

2. Faster compile using less cpu and memory.

The faster compile part aint really noticeable and has no effect on the finished compile. So you can safely forget about that fact:)

There aint rally any reason to mess around with applying the null texture in low w-poly areas(below 400). Its just like all other r_speeds reduction methods, dont bother working on them in below 400 w_poly areas. (There are some cases where it will help, if the 400 w_poly area is rendered from a high polygon area).


Placement

A face on the outside of the level will, with a leak free map, never be rendered. So no use of nulls there.

Faces totally covered by solid brushes(non-func_***) will also never be rendered.

Faces totally covered by entity brushes WILL be rendered! Even though they aint visible at all, they will still raise your w_poly. You can avoid this by placing null on the invisible face.

As told in another chapter its often easier to have more brushes in one entity. If one of the brushes totally cover one of the other brushes sides, then it will still be rendered. So you have to null the faces which aint visible in that case.

In a room with some detail, there will always be some top&down facing sides which never will be visible. Thoose faces can safly be nulled.

Every face, facing directly downwards, under around 25 units(from the floor)will not be visible. 25 units is a bit below the position of the players eyes when he is ducked. Beware of that they will be visible, if the player somehow can get below the floor, fx. with a stair going down.

Every face, facing directly upwards, above around 110 units(from the floor) will not be visible. 110 units is a bit above the position of the players eyes when he is jumping. Beware of that they will be visible, if the player somehow can get over the normal height. He might be able to that, if he climbs a crate in the room.

Realistic maps has areas which you can see into, but not walk into. Thoose areas will often only be visible from one direction. Since you will never see the backfaces, they can safely be nulled.

Backfaces of buildings or mountains you have placed outside the game area are often not visible. They can nulled safely.


How to get not visible faces nulled fast


1. Select all the brushes using ctrl+shift. Ctrl adds new brushes to the current selection. Shift ensures that all faces on the brush are marked.

2. Unselect ALL the faces which are visible ingame. You do this by holding down ctrl and clicking on them.

3. Now you should only have all the non-visible faces selected. Click the browse button in the texture properties window and doubleclick on the null texture. Click apply and all the not visible faces will have null applied. It might sounded a bit advanced here, but with bigger sections of brushes, and when you get used to it, it is much faster.

[SoUlFaThEr]

ok im already doing it right......and more :)

thanks

i was more wondering if a nulled bottom face of a crate resting on the ground (for example) is going to cut up the floor like it does if we use a regular texture on it......(or a brush on the wall like a light fixture, if its nulled in the back not cutting up the wall)

to add to this.......how do i get gl_wireframes to work in Steam?????? they dont work for me......cuz theres no software mode like in 1.5......or is there?

[the Carpenter]

If I understand things right, they won't split faces.
However ... you know me ... I could have dreamt that up over time. ;)
Don't know too much about Steam.
Don't you still have valve installed too ?

[Zacker]

I dont think textures matter when it comes to splitting of touching brushes. I think it only matter its world or entity.

Even if the buttomface of a crate is nulled the area beneath it will still not be rendered if the crate is a world brush.

You made me think of something though:) What if we turned brushes into entities and textured the backfaces with a @texture.

Since the brush would be an entity, it should not cut up the face it touch. Since it has a @texture there will not be rendered through it though, if you can follow me?

Could be interresting to see what the engine thought about that. I guess it would simply act as a normal entity brush, since the @texture would be discarded as its fully covered by a world brush.


To get gl_wireframe to work you might have to run it in singleplay, run map via consol, turn on sv_cheats or something. I dunno if any of that works, since I dont have Steam.

Sorry for hijacking ya thread Carp:)

[the Carpenter]

I just wanna know what you wanna put @ tex on.
Where do you wanna use them ?
To save on r_speeds somehow ?
Like as walls ?
Cuz I've been theorizing about such things too.
Like using {brushes on one side & @ on the backs.
I wanna use something like that to make a destroyed city block.
Interesting ?
Anybody else have ideas about this ?
Cheers !

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

I find it weird that the engine would allow the rendering of invisible faces ... ???:(

I mean if you face a cube, you may see 3 faces of it at once, the engine shouldn't even bother about rendering the 3 others in the back unless you change your point of view ?

[Zacker]

I have been wondering the same Carp. A year ago I said to myself: "If there just was a texture which could block VIS, then I could make the most amazing stuff". Today I have no idea of why to use it anywhere.

I have some wierd ideas, which probably wont work out. If you hollowed a door and textured the insides with the @ texture, then you would maybe have a door which blocked VIS, when it was closed?

Gingsing Avenger, one of the @ texture experts, used it one place in Industry West. He has some flap doors which you can go through, but not look through. There it is quite usefull with it.


According to the results of the discussions on the collective the engine does actually not render invisble faces.

I still dont know what to belive though. If the engine did not render the 3 other faces of a cube, then there would be a lot of cases, where we dont need the null texture.

One of the guys over at the collective made some experiments. He filled a room with 100 cubes. Then he compiled and checked r_speeds. After that he went into Hammer and textured all invisible faces with null. After a new compile the r_speeds was still similar, when looking from the same angle.

I guess the subject could still need some experimenting.

[SoUlFaThEr]

with the @texture are you meaning the aaatrigger?

[the Carpenter]

Ah !
The door idea is good !
It would wok best with sliding doors though, because the edges of the door would have to be fully covered as thick as their pieces.
Say: the door is made up of 6 pieces, all one unit thick.
You would need to ensure the @ surface was completely blocking vis.
Like so:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/AtDoor.jpg

Make sense ?

p.s. He means tex that begin with @.
Such as @TCblinds from ts_normandin.
They are passable to players & weapons, but nothing on the other side gets rendered. ;)

[the Carpenter]

Every mappers nightmare happened to me today.

I started out the day with this:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsNO01.jpg

I altered a couple of things ... no big deal, right ?

Compiled ... got this error:

Unable to open maps/ts_normandin_CREDITS.txt for transfer.
Processing maps/ts_normandin_CREDITS.txt.
Then ... the prt file went missing.
At that point I copied & pasted the prt ... & apparently ... a REALLY old version of the map file from another folder.

I compiled again & got this:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsNO02.jpg

The last 6+ months of work on normandin are lost.
Not very cool.
I found a version of beta 2 at least ... only 3 months lost on that one !
So ... I mapped like shitbusters today & am compiling the rebuilt & retextured & redetailed version of the map.
We'll see how much I got right in a while.
Oh terrible day.

Oh ... terrible day !

[sPlOrYgOn]

that sucks a lot...

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

I know how it feels cos it happens with code too...... I feel sorry for you dude :( really...
if you're really too pissed take a breath... don't take the risk to do another mistake... do something else for a short while, you'll get back to normandin in a few days, and eventually you will find a more recent backup the day you won't be searching for it. That's usually what happens :)

...dunno, how about texturing a cathedral for a change ? :D

[the Carpenter]

I took a more direct route & rebuilt everything yesterday !
I only missed a few models in the library & a have couple of tex mistakes.
That & my magic doors are gone & I'll have to redo them.
Not bad for a day though !
For some reason though, my r_speeds went up by about 100, almost everywhere.
I didn't null the back faces of anything yet, so that may be the answer.
Perhaps I hadn't turned stuff into func_walls yet in beta 2.
I'll work on that aspect later today.

Still though ... I did really good yesterday !

[@$3.1415rin]

I have a folder for my bot which I make a copy of every time I wanna change something big, or at least every 2 days workin on it. then I just give it names with increasing numbers at the end ... not the finest way to do this, things like cvs are a lot cooler, but not that easy ... maybe you should consider a similar system, hd space isnt a topic these days I think :D

[Thirdeye]

i feel you buddy...

ya PMB has it right man... when i lost all my rmfs etc i took a week off and ive been mappin since :)

[the Carpenter]

I've got it all but finished again.
Compiling as I type.
There were only a few glitches that I could find & fix, so I'm certainly almost done.
Just tweaking the tree, actually. ;)
I will, of course, post pix when it's ready.
:D
Cheers !

p.s. R_speeds went down considerably on the compile where I'd NULLed the back faces of everything touching another surface.
Some where func_walls & others were just world brushes though, so I don't know which one did the magic ! LOL !

[the Carpenter]

Comparison/Contrast:
OLD
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn01.jpg

NEW
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn10.jpg

OLD
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn02.jpg

NEW
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn11.jpg

Well ... pretty close, hey ?

[the Carpenter]

In other news ... the saloon map now looks like this:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_s01.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_s02.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_s03.jpg

[Huntkillaz]

bummer man..one thing i learned is back up alot ..i usually do small stuff weekly and full a month...

the maps still look good :) maybe make the tree's a little greener than teal

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

Why do I have that strange feeling that I know which cathedral you're alluding to, PMB? ;)

EDIT

Oops, what happened? Did I miss a page or did all you guys post when I was writing? Makes the line above a bit out of context... well, in that case I'll comment the new screenies: 8o
There isn't much more to say, really... great to see you recovered so quickly and came back with a bang! Keep it up!

[the Carpenter]

Can do !
Compiling now ... on what I hope to be the final build.
We'll see ... shortly.
;)

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

Carp man, you rock.
I love the night ambience in your bar
Can't wait to jump & dive everywhere with a socom in hand
w00t


*edit* have you tried changing the sky in this map to buildings, such as lmcity or rdm_un ? these skies are from the default TS maps...
give it a try... 8)

[the Carpenter]

I had a city one in there at 1st.
I was gonna change it back, actually ... so ... good reminder.
It was gonna be a saloon at 1st, but it's kind of a goth club now.
The city skyline will look much better, yes.
SO good to know there's another TS nut in the house !!!
Cheers !

[SoUlFaThEr]

how in the world does something like that happen carp...i mean in the first place(the tex problem)?

that totally sucks man Carp

lets all pitch in for some dope for Carp for having the energy to redo it all....thats great stuff!

yer making me nervous tho......i never back up anything.....and never lost anything like that either.

and please go more in depth about that @ texture and its uses cuz ive never even heard of that one....open a new thread for it informing the public about it.
or Zacker too. i dont like missing out on good shit and others may like this info too

Thanks duder.....that map is looking no less than awesome(wheres the menus and ashtrays hehehe)

[the Carpenter]

Well ... 1st ... I was an idiot & overwrote my latest build with my earliest build.
The tex are missing because I've since removed them from my wad for sucking so bad.
I redid them & gave them new names for the newer version of the map.
The old map still wanted the ugly tex though.

Regarding the @ textures.
@ tex are simply tex that block vis, but are passable to players.
So ... you put up some @drapes in the window & vis can't see through.
You'll still be able to crawl through it though, cuz the brush won't block you.
It's an invaluable tool if you've gone mad with details in an area & need to drop the r_speeds, without compromising one of your many routes. i.e. windows ... mostly
I used them as blinds in ts_normandin to block the lower 4 windows in the courtyard.
R_speeds dropped by over 100 for each one I used.
Which is a good thing ... cuz now it's actually playable. ;)

I have discovered something else though ...
@tex cannot be tied to a func_wall entity.
Which, more than likely, means they cannot be used in doors either.
Sad ... but ... oh well.
It was worth trying out.
Cheers !

[SoUlFaThEr]

thats dang interesting! who found this out?

[the Carpenter]

I saw it on a website years ago, but I couldn't tell ya whos it was, sadly.
Just never used it before Normandin, that's all.

[SoUlFaThEr]

i suppose im pretty blind and am not paying attention to "the big boys"

[the Carpenter]

Here's ts_normandin in it's present condition:
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_normandin01.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_normandin02.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_normandin03.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_normandin04.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/ts_normandin05.jpg

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

Somehow I'm not fond of these leaves as they are now... they look way too bright IMO
Just tuning down the luminosity should do the trick...

Already tried putting a wooden floor in the library ?
Or tiles... they would fit better I think.

The rest looks VERY convincing, it looks like a real school (oh wait, maybe it is ?)

You should do something with the rocky ground in the outdoors... perhaps just changing the texture x/y ratio would be enough. So far it looks "axial", I mean you can almost see square lines in the ground as if all the little rocks were all lined up.

You miss a restaurant... or a self-service :)

[the Carpenter]

I did try wooden floors in the librart, but it looked really odd.
So, I settled on wooden highlights on the stairs, etc.
Cheers for that.
The stone sidewalk ... maybe cobblestones ... I'll try that today, but 1st I'll have to make the tex.
We'll see.
It's going beta right away ... you want a link when I'm ready ?
Well ... I did some new leaves & put down some cobblestones.
We'll see how it goes in a while.

Dayam, I sure sit here a lot waiting for compiles.
I'm really afraid of how long it might take with HL2, for instance.
There's got to be a better way.
(Oh man ... I wish I had a starships computer to work for me.)
:D

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

A link ?
Yeah. Haha! Time to frag some bots 8D

[SoUlFaThEr]

i hate the compile waiting to :(
this damn jump map is running close to an hour for a compile....thats 20 minutes longer than any other map ive made so far.....

i think i agree with the leaves thing PMB said

[the Carpenter]

test version is ready
check your PM box PMB
heh ... that sounds funny ;)

http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/newtree02.jpg

[biohazerd87]

test version is ready
Can I get it to? Lol

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

A lil feedback, Carp ? here goes. *ahem* :)

Whoa.

First off, let me congratulate you because this map is of superb quality. In all aspects. There are not many things to say. And the most of what I have to say deals about so ridiculous details that I'm almost hesitating to point them out.

Let's go'n have the usual screenshot tour, now:

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0000.png
This is the ONLY tidbit of a quarter of the half of a texture problem that I could find in the entire map after nearly 1 hour wandering everywhere! And even, it's not really a texture problem since it rather looks like a lighting issue. I'm talking here about the rail but also the wall in the back, which shades in different tones, giving a weird look. I'm not sure what you can do about it if it's just the way the map is compiled. Everything elsewhere, everywhere, is PERFECT, up to the classrooms being numbered in the right order and according to their floor. Ku-dos!

One detail though:
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0004.png
I'm willing to give 100 bucks to the guy who tells me he's able to deploy the same ladder in real life. Think about it : once it's folded, the ladder is taller than the ceiling :D

Now about the eventual changes to the layout, well:
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0001.png
if I understand right, this is the entrance yard to the school ? I'm thinking it would be problematic for pupils and visitors to enter and leave the school when other pupils are having a basketball match. I don't see them crossing the field. A good architect would have put at least a sidewalk around it, in the same tones (grass + tiles) as the central yard. Just enlarging the yard and make a sidewalk with benches and eventually a few potted plants in the corners would be more appealing and would feel more logical to visitors.
Another thing here, about the gameplay: when you enter this yard, there is ONLY one way out (i.e, the door). This is something to avoid at all costs in a deathmatch map (and in any sort of map in general anyway). You can be sure elseway that nobody will ever put a foot there. Ensure all places have at least 2 ways in/out. You could here, for example, make a little door in a corner leading to an administrative office or something, which itself would lead directly into one of the corridors of the first floor of the school.
Another thing: what's this rotty wooden door ? Is that a modern school's entrance door ? No way dude, change me that please :D It rather looks like a haunted manor's door as is. Why not make a large automatic sliding door in transparent plexiglas like those there are in supermarkets and public buildings in general ? And for the main entrance from the street, a bright sas (with the door to the street unopenable of course) would be a nice addition. You must have already seen one of these stupid $2 movies for teenagers that take place in californian schools. Just imitate :)

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0003.png
ROFLMAO! Intoxicated, eh ? :D
but hell yeah, that chick is well worth such an obsession :D
That corridor is really dark though. It's a very good thing as is but what is not is that you often bump into short obstacles such as benches or potted plants (hm, can't remember if there were potted plants there.... but there were obstacles anyway).

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0002.png
There's something that doesn't fit here... I think it's the font. It's not the same font as the classroom numbers, am I right ? Try taking a more "official" font such as those you see on public signs.
Aaah, the library. I DO HAVE something important to say about this library dude. NOBODY ever will get his feet in it if it stays as is. Because it's on an end of the building, and there are only 2 ways to get there: one from each side of the first floor. Not only you can't open the door to the yard, but you can't even SEE outside. This library has strictly no tactical interest, which is a shame since it's the most appealing part of the map. What's the point of climbing the stairs and get to the upper floor ? Nothing to ambush there, nothing to do but to collect 2 miserable powerups. That's not where the action happens. By all means, by all means, make the door to the yard opens, and make the 2 windows breakable, arrange them, widen them so that a sniper could at least climb up the shelves on the upper floor and snipe outside. Or do something, but make people come and go in your library.

The middle yard, on the other hand...
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0005.png
...is where most or all the action takes place. If there are less than 16 players in your map, people get lonely very fast searching for each other and fatally meet in the middle yard. But from 24 to 32 players, it's an AWESOME map! Only constant though: the middle yard is THE attraction point. So by all means too, to even the dispersion of players through the whole map, make the doors open !!! Currently there are 6 ways to enter this yard (the 6 breakable windows) and only 2 to leave it (the 2 windows from the first floor). And that's where the problem is. 4 are one-way, 2 are bidirectional. That's where all the action will take place : through these windows. So, by deduction, first thing to do: make these damn curtains drawable :) I can't bear getting headshot by bots through these curtains. Make them work just like the curtains in cs_747. Next thing to do in this yard, most important :
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0012.png
make EXITS. Make the door to the library OPEN, make two other doors by the other end open too. That will perfectly even the ins and outs. People will be able to LEAVE the yard without crossing that lethal window-to-window killer range.

Anyway, congratulations on the new leaves...
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0011.png
...and the height at which you put the bushes. That's simply perfect. Oh, by the way, did you know ?
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0014.png
Your tree is climbable. Well, it is, but only if you pick up the matrix-jump powerup. Since there are such powerups here and there in the map it's quite common to find one in a round. It's a perfect sniping spot! and as you can see...
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0015.png
... it can cover the 2 sides of the yard. The only problem, is that climbing up there requires a lot of practice, and dayam, it's TOUGH! You need to climb one or the other pots on the side where the bushes are, take a run and jump very accurately. Even the landing is difficult : you can easily fall down the other side. That would be sweet if people could climb into that tree easily. That would make the yard an even more dangerous place!

...oh yea, I was talking about the curtains...
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0013.png
that would not be a bad idea to make them thinner IMO -or drawable *hint* *hint* ;) Here's what you get elseway when you want to place yourself near the edge of a window.

Now on the corridors.
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0010.png
The obstacles provide good coverage, but not exceptional, which is a quality IMO. What is problematic though, is that if you're at one end of the corridor, like here
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0009.png
...and an enemy points his nose at the other end, there's nothing you can do to evade him. You must fight and win, or die. It is appreciable when people are low in health to find ways to escape/flee from a firefight. Take 3DMike's maps: in every corridor, there are rooms on the side with at least 2 doors. When you meet an enemy, and your health is low, nothing is lost yet: you can still manage to evade him. Like here for example :
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0008.png
why not make a classroom behind these two doors ? Alright, maybe it's the many tables which scare you for the r_speeds, but you can still make a biology room for example, with long ceramic desks. It's much doable.

Ah well, in the end, I'm probably nitpicking because it's a damn enjoyable map already.
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0006.png
It just makes me uncomfortable to feel such a level of perfection, to feel that you're so close to a masterpiece, damn, I *had* to tell you all this :D

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0007.png
Once finished, ts_normandin will rock everything that's rockable, that's for certain.

An AMAZING map.

[the Carpenter]

Thank you SO much man !
That's the best help I've gotten yet, by FAR !

Here's what's already happened in the map:
-I've added glass top dividers to the library, as well as the book beeper things.
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tour01.jpg

-The courtyard got some benches & structural canopies over the doors.
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tour02.jpg

-The Hall Of Mirrors Effect in the blinds has been dealt with now too.

Now, on to what you've mentioned:

- Stairwell shading is odd, but not awful. I might just live with it.
What was the problem with the railing tex/ lighting ?
I can't tell cuz the pic is really dark.

-I win the $100.oo !!!
All I need to do is slide the ladder up, through a ceiling tile ! I win !

-I absolutely LOVE the idea for the b-ball court !
The sidewalk around it & grass & trees are definately going to be added.
Also the door idea is brilliant !
It'll lead through a sports room/lock-up and back into the main hall.
I may add a fire escape there as well.

-I'll have to revamp the area by the dark pictures, to include a front foyer, with a set of front doors, etc.
Also very good inspiration.
If that happens, I may be able to open up the doors to the courtyard on that side.

-The library may get access through the back corners of the top floor, leading to the second floor hallways.
R_speeds are pushing it in there already, so we'll see.
Still a great idea though.

-R_speeds are the reason I cannot open the door or the windows in there though & also why the blinds cannot be made drawable.

-Classrooms may be pushing it, in fact, adding anything more at this point may be pushing it.
I'm already using almost every trick I've ever read about to make this map run after each compile ! ;)
It's HUGE ! 16Mb already !

Thanks again, man !
If anyone needs me ... I'll probably be mapping. :D
Cheers !

p.s. Doors ARE ugly ... will change.

[biohazerd87]

Wow I haven't even played it yet but from the pictures it looks like a msterpeice!!! Thats what makes a map really great, time and revisions!!! I really like your style carp what are some of your completed maps i would like to get play some?

[the Carpenter]

7 months & counting. ;)

There are 2 ts maps here for DL.
Powerslave & Highwire.
I like the sow highwire version much better than the ts one, but ... oh well.
(That was then ...)
http://users.accesscomm.ca/endo/index.html


Much improved, but not yet done, either:
http://users.accesscomm.ca/endo/b-ball01.jpg

*EDIT*
I'm now doing a compile, in which this area leads to a new front entance, via a small, private road.
We'll see how/if this works out ... tomorrow.
Good freakin' night !
;)

[Zacker]

Really great improvements Carp. 16 megs? Thats wild!

Nice reply PMB:)

[SoUlFaThEr]

quality !!

PMB = Reality checker :)

[the Carpenter]

Getting better:

http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tour03.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tour04.jpg

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

the court looks VERY nice now! great job!

did you add other access to the library already ?

[the Carpenter]

Not yet ... will work on it though.
Hopefully it'll turn out too.
I made new door tex, that aren't in the pix yet.
Added a reception area to the front entrance now, as well as polished the exterior up a bit.
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tour05.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tour06.jpg

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

About the first pix: you should also add one or two trees behind that wall in the background, so that we're not incitated to believe that behind it's the void of the end of the map...

[the Carpenter]

I've done one (right) upper floor library entrance now.
It worked out great.
Hopefully the compile will agree with me.
Every 2nd time I change things now, the map won't run.
Seriously ... this map is epic in scale, now.
The bsp is 16.5 Mb ... on it's own !
Then there are sprites, sounds, env, models & the overview !
Totally crazy !
I can't add any more sprites or models, cuz I've maxed out both !
I dare not add any more textures, cuz it's already at 5.7 Mb, instead of the stock 4 Mb.
I can't add lights, cuz that's already been raised too.
It's getting ridiculous !
LOLZ !!!
We'll see what happens tomorrow.
At any rate, the changes have done miracles for the map !
Again, I can't thank you enough PMB !!!
Just as good as ube in this regard ... maybe better, in this case. :D
Cheers !

[SoUlFaThEr]

when i saw his reply with the pics he made the first thing i thought of was Ubehagelig :) he did this kind of thing with me on my cs_brainwash....and i threw that versionj completely out and started over.....hehehe(threw 2 weeks of work out the window !!)

[the Carpenter]

Heh ...
3:30 am
I have to work tomorrow ...
Sitting here ... watching Bounce 7 GatherLight.
I'm so hooked !

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

Just as good as ube in this regard ...when i saw his reply with the pics he made the first thing i thought of was Ubehagelig :)???:( you guys got me lost here...

[Zacker]

watching Bounce 7 GatherLight.
I prefer a lower amount of bounces. A high number of radiosity bounces makes your lighting so boring, plain and with no contrast.

If you want to use a high number of bounces you should also be sure to set your shade quite high.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoUlFaThEr
when i saw his reply with the pics he made the first thing i thought of was Ubehagelig :)

???:( you guys got me lost here...
Ubehagelig is a mapper who dont make maps himself but give advices to others - and he is good at it. He is the guy delaying our maps:)

[the Carpenter]

If memory serves me correctly, I was the guy taht talked you outta ... like 30 bounces ... or close, back in the day.
I was using 3 back then too.
I did a map a while back that looked way better after 7, so I kept it around.
I might try it again at 3 some time ... we'll see.
If you really wanna see some strange contrasted lighting, play with -dscale a bit & see what you think. (1 is the normal setting ... 2 & 3 are more extreme.)

Anyways ... the map won't run ... again.
I'm recompiling, with 4 less bench & bush models in place to see if that'll help kill the server precache errors I keep getting.
We'll see.
Frustrated at this point, I am.

[the Carpenter]

Optimization ... major optimization.
Things are looking better & I've saved a lot of polies with a couple of new tex, in place of old objects.
I redid the doors, finally, too.
Added glass ones for the front entry & nice fir doors for the other entries.
The outside path/front doors/reception area & the back, upper library path are completed.
They make a HUGE difference in gameplay.
Everything flows WAY better now.
I'm gonna need to redo all my friggin' windows again too.
LOL
So sick of windows !
heh heh
More ... later.
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tour07.jpg

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

looks very nice!
can't wait for the next beta :D

[Zacker]

If memory serves me correctly, I was the guy taht talked you outta ... like 30 bounces ... or close, back in the day.

I doubt it, I have never used 30 bounces, I used 4 once though:) X-tender however, has used 30 bounces on some of his maps.

If you really wanna see some strange contrasted lighting, play with -dscale a bit & see what you think. (1 is the normal setting ... 2 & 3 are more extreme.)

I did not know of that command, could you please explain some more about it? I did a lookup on google for "-dscale" and got 0 results.

[the Carpenter]

Well ... as you all know ... memory does NOT always serve me correctly. ;)

http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/dscale.jpg

[the Carpenter]

Should have another version for testing by the end of the weekend.
:D
Off to Winnipeg to rock & roll tonight though.
Back tomorrow.

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

Alright, feedback for Normandin beta 2 - here we go again 8)

Okay, first there was a problem loading the map. The map wouldn't load and the game would crash on a Mod_NumForName(): models/xen_schrank7.mdl not found error. So what I did is I took your XEV flag model, and renamed it xen_schrank7.mdl and it worked. I've witnessed it's clearly not the right model in the map, but it makes it work at least :D Anyway, next time don't forget to include it.

Oh and the overview bitmap hasn't been updated either :) It's still the old version with the buildings on the 4 sides of the basketball court, and no 3rd path to the library.

So first off congrats for the new places, and the entrance - it looks MUCH more realistic. Sweet! =)
But again, size that foldable ladder down ;)

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0016
hahaha! :D

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0017
bug alert! this door doesn't open correctly. Well, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't...

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0018
...and in both senses it seems. That should be simple to fix.

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0019
RHAA! there's an invisible func_wall here! I hate that! I hate that! why can't I go where I want ? meh! :D No, seriously, it's a bit annoying because when you're in a firefight, you would want to strafe right or walk back and something would block you here that you wouldn't expect. Wouldn't it be better to start the blocking brush at the position I'm aiming at, i.e, at the corner of the wall ? That would let players move until the wall, which would be more natural. If you're concerned by your trees being noclippable (I saw it's a model), just make one invisible brush of the size of the trunk for each tree.

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0020
w00t I've FINALLY found one texture problem in your map! :D if your wall was 10cm closer we wouldn't see the neons going "through" the wall :)

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0021
the void over there looks odd... wouldn't it look better if you made a little hill just after the wall to mask the view beyond it ? Nothing more efficient and sweet looking than green hills to fill gaps in exterior maps :)

and while you're at it...
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0025
...this would need a fix too :)
Good thing to make the barrier a func_ladder though. Fun.

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0026
Same thing here... and yeah, a hill :) A hill with trees, and no blocking brush before the wall :)

on the other hand...
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0024
... you might want to add some of them around the trunks of your bushes... else players can pass through them... dunno if that was intended but I would find more logical if it was prevented.

About the rest, well, not much to say...
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0027
I can climb here. Dunno if it was made on purpose either. On a side note, with your little roofs above the doors it's much easier to climb into my tree now! w00t w00t (ain't no ape either, hey.)

while I'm standing here, I gotta tell you this too...
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0028
...don't be mad at me but I reskinned your XEV flag to make it something more appropriate to a school. Yours was black/red, anarchist-like. Since the Specialists guys are italian, I put italian colors on the flag. I truely believe it adds credibility to the yard. Don't you think it fits lovely ? :)

On the library now.
http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0030
I believe this window (it's the one by the 3rd access you added to the library) should be bright. Just let the curtain drawn open. Make it a source of natural light and people will be more attracted towards this way. If you let it dark as is it will just look like a dead end when it's seen from the other end of the corridor. Make the outside light enter through it like the windows there are on one end of the corridor in the upper floor.

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0022
You have a funny sense of art man ! :D Putting a cartoony painting next to a classical masterpiece, I mean, that's... funny :D That's the only painting in the room that made me stop still anyway. Doesn't this car have eyes ? rofl

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0029
Oh yeah, I wanted to tell you that in the first beta already... but I was not sure it wouldn't be too much asking. Knowing your skills I guess not. Well, don't tell me it isn't possible to make the rail here by the stairs look like the other rails around the balcony ? I think the staircase looks unnatural as is. Compared to the rest of the architecture in the room, I mean.

http://racc.bots-united.com/ts_normandin0023
Last thing, but don't miss it out I advise ; to even the flow of players through the map, put one big weapon to pick up here. A M249 on the table, for example, and one kevlar or two :) That would attract players into your library for sure. Because now, even if your 3rd entry changed things a bit for the better, it's not enough IMO. People and bots still fight around the middle yard, or by the school's entrance. Can you make the exact same exit from the library by the other end of the upper floor ?

Hmm yeah, I think that's all. You're very close to a final release IMO man. Con-gra-tu-la-tions. 8)

[the Carpenter]

Cheers again !
I'll see what I can do. ;)

[the Carpenter]

All better now.

I did everything you said, actually, including the opening of the library on the other back-side.
Door's fixed. (I forgot to name the glass part.)
Trees are more open outside & bushes have been clipped..
View has been clipped properly in that area now, too, as well as a billboard & trees added "behind" the fence.
Ceiling tex fixed.
Ladder is gone.

Now ... I just need to get the bastard to run again.
I have no choice but to finish this map ... it's too big to add anything else.
(Nearly up to a 16Mb bsp again.)

I'll post when I can.
Cheers again PMB !!!
I love you man !!!
LOLZ !!!

[biohazerd87]

So is it ready yet?

[the Carpenter]

9th compile now ... 8 failed to produce a working map.
Might just be too big with the added library entrance.
I'm dumping things like crazy to see if it'll work again.
If not, I'll have to revert to an older build & try again.
Cheers !

[the Carpenter]

It lives !!!
However ... it lives at the expense of the trees & benches in the b-ball court.
I redid the windows tonight.
I forgot one tweak, in particular. grrrrrrr
I may yet have to close a side of the library on the top floor.
R_speeds took a sharp turn up with that addition.
I'm trying hints 1st, but I may have to change it back. :(
More tomorrow ... I hope.

[the Carpenter]

I've just added windows from the reception area & the library that give access to the center courtyard.
Hopefully it'll all work out, cuz it'll be WAY better with alternative routes.
The library rox at present, although there are two small areas with r_speed issues.
They ARE small though & I may live with them, cuz again, it's WAY better with more routes.
Pix later. ;)
Cheers !

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

w00t! :P



/me grants myself the award of the most productive post of the year :D

[Thirdeye]

its nice to see maps that spend so much time on come out looking feeling and even smelling like a million bucks !

keep on keeping on

[the Carpenter]

http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn01.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn02.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn03.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn04.jpg

[SoUlFaThEr]

CARP YOU ARE SO SEXEEEEEEEEH
how did you do the rail.......hehe make a new texture for it? you did and it looks good duder :)

TS might be in italy or so PMB but, Carp is from Canada....and since he da map maka........the canadian flag stays :)

[the Carpenter]

LOLZ !!!
Yeah ! What he said !
I nailed the railing texture on the 1st try !
A VERy rare occasion.
Cheers duder !
This map is REALLY gaining momentum.
I suspect it's nearly complete.

[the Carpenter]

I'll have another version ready for Wednesday.
It's SO much better now !
(If I do say so, myself.) ;)
Once it's done, I think I'll prolly do a CS version too.
Hopefully that'll work out without too much effort.
The hardest part will be getting all the breakables to respawn with every new round.
(I'm not sure I have room for the added entities.)
I smell a public release coming on ... SO close ... heh heh
hehehehehehehehehehehehahahahahahahahaha
MUAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!

[the Carpenter]

Well ... this IS the map that never ends.
It just goes on & on, my friends.
Carpenter started building it, not knowing what it was.
Now it just goes on & on, forever, all because.
(All together now !)
This is the map that never ends.
It just goes on & on, my friends.
Carpenter started building it, not knowing what it was.
Now it just goes on & on, forever, all because.

Well ... the end IS finally in sight !
I've just about got the CS version together too.
The TS version needs a few more tweaks yet, before it's release.
Mostly ready to rock though !
Yippee !!!
You guys will prolly be the 1st to hear about it.
Cheers !

(Reprise !)
This is the map that never ends.
It just goes on & on, my friends.
Carpenter started building it, not knowing what it was.
Now it just goes on & on, forever, all because.
(Repeat through fade out.)

[SoUlFaThEr]

/me sings
This is the map that never ends.
It just goes on & on, my friends.
Carpenter started building it, not knowing what it was.
Now it just goes on & on, forever, all because.
and i get to waypoint the masterpiece :)

i will take my time on it and do it right for yooz

[sPlOrYgOn]

yaya we get a new crazy looking hostage rescue map!! :D

[the Carpenter]

Yes.

[biohazerd87]

When can we expect to be able to play it?

[the Carpenter]

My lighting issues have been resolved, so ... Beta testing soon.
Sometime after SoUlFaThEr is done waypointing it.
He'll be done when he's done.
No panic on my end ... heh heh ... I can wait.

In the news:
I updated my website today & the sprites page is finally up & running.
PMB ... you might be interested in the TS weapon specific stuff I've got up there now.
Cheers !

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

TS weapon stuff ? wotsit ?

*edit*
found... the bullet trails and the lasers are pretty stuff indeed :) gotta grab some of them...

[SoUlFaThEr]

i will have your waypoint done today........


well....cs1.6 at least
i started a new game....and it stopped in that process of loading the map with no error message....just put me back on the CS screen where i started. so i tried again.........this time got in the map.......i watched the cameras for a bit..3 one points at a corner of the 2 walls its between so you can fix that one........

then i tried to join a team.....i was back out in the CS start screen again.....

further attempt gave me the same results.

something is amiss dude. cant waypoint it with 1.6 cuz i cant get in it :(

so i waypoint the map in cs1.5 cuz it runs no problem there.......i go to test the first draft of the waypoints and 2 bots get in the map and i get a crash.....this Edict error everyone is talking about so i cant test.......i need to find the version they made that "fixed" this shit.......

ill stay on it.....

[the Carpenter]

I had some crash problems in the TS version too.
The ladder fences were crashing the game.
PMB says the glass doors were doing it too.
So ... I'm removing those elements & hopefully that'll work itself out.
I'll get on the CS version after I go for eggs ... mmmmmm.
PMB ... there's a new TS version in your PM box.
Can you see if it still crashes without the bad entities ?
I kept the wood doors, but if they cause crashes ... then they'll have to stay open too.
Cheers guys !

[SoUlFaThEr]

if they stay open then your light effect is gone?

damn if thats true.....

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

No crashes on that one... great job dude 8)

Ah yes... ONE problem.
the fences. You can go through.

That's all I can think of.

[the Carpenter]

LOLZ !
As soon as I sent it I realised I hadn't clipped them.
Just the glass doors were propped open in both maps.
The wooden doors with the funky lights are still included. ;)
All fixed up now, as is with the CS version, also.
I'm compiling the CS one again, for SoUlFaThEr, right now.
Hopefully it will be glitchless as well.
Seriously ... if it weren't for you guys ... I dunno what I'd do !
Wheee !

[the Carpenter]

OK ... this is WAY off topic, but ... check out the linky:
the GooKittens (http://www.saskmetal.com/jamroom/bands/10/)
Cheers !

[the Carpenter]

Another bug today, on the TS version, at least.
As soon as I add 12 bots I end up back at my desktop or stuck in a crash.
Maybe the wooden doors are causing this ?
What says you, PMB ?
Maybe I could make a new zip for ya ?
You're way better at figuring out the bugs than I am.
Cheers !

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

Just yesterday I played normandin with 32 bots... (and got 0wned :D)

[the Carpenter]

And ... today ?
Did you try the newer version today ?
Mine seems to work fine, now.
I did a fresh install of TS to make sure ...
Yup ... it made all the difference.
So ... if I don't see ... or hear about any glaring TS issues ... I might be done with the old girl !
Woohoo ... I hope.

[SoUlFaThEr]

ok today im ready to finish the waypoint........been super busy...

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

well I see no glitches so far... and it hasn't crashed once.

I couldn't run it on Steam though, I was unable to get the game to run (Steam complains that "the game is currently unavailable - try again later", WTF ?) so I tested it on WON with bots (but still TS 2.1)

It works, as far as I can see...

[the Carpenter]

All seems well for me too, now.
Steam worked nicely as well.
Yippee !!!
I look forward to playing the CS version with your wpts, SoUlFaThEr !

[SoUlFaThEr]

man i got your test3 version .....but when i add bots it lags like a mf and then it crashes still with a num_for_edict:bad pointer error still.......
let me try this in cs1.6.....if it fails there ill just upload this BETA version of the waypoints so maybe one of you can test it out a bit.....

i feel bad cuz you ripped out those models skins for me when i needed them :(
i just cant test them :(

ok dude got to test them in CS1.6. theres a big map mistake on your stairways.....the hostages are getting stuck on them because the threshold is so low.....some bots are taking the 2 library hossies upstairs to get the other 2 and they bang thier head a few times and the hossies then run around alone following the hossie carrier whos above them.......looks funny :)

another funny thing...hard to believe but....most CT's spawned on the wooden door side of the spawn area........a few ran out the door then the door closed.....and a T somehow got through and was trying to go through that door while 3 CT were pushing on it from the other side......cure? make the doors stay open even longer JUST for these retarded bots.......the real player will never notice anyway....set it to like 12 or 15 second wait time.......on all the doors duder :) the hossie area upstairs has the same problem...a camping T coming out while a searching CT goin in is gonna suck! it may still happen tho because they both hit the door at the same time but....around the start areas its good to have them open long. to solve the simultaneous collision time....take the func_ out of the door and just open it.....

this version works.....but as i said i dont have much time to "finish" them because you have to fix the map anyway for that....

ill upload this beta to the filebase
( other stuff section; normandin_wpb1_sf.zip !)
so check that out and see for yourself. these are not done yet and i would like to finish them. if you find some other mistakes.....tell me about them and ill fix them when im back :) k?

ill keep tweaking it at the LAN if im bored of shooting or jumping

[the Carpenter]

Yo duder !
The link for the wpt in the filebase just leads back to the main file page when I click on it.
No matter though, as the problems you've discovered must obviously be addressed.

I know exactly where you mean now.
Will fix ... doors as well.
I think the trick door must go.
It's just too buggy as is, in both versions.
Sad ... but better that it all works flawlessly for gameflow, in the end.
I'll let you know when I've got it finished.
I had to reformat today ... grrrr ... lousy luck lately ... I tell ya !
Cheers !

[biohazerd87]

this is like waiting for Half-life 2 hehehehe
Moved back......Ok almost ready....
just kidding.....ok now it is really ready....
oooppppss no it isn't
lol
J/K!
but really i can't wait to play it

[the Carpenter]

hahahahaha

[the Carpenter]

WOW !!!
I dropped the doors with the trick light & it shaved 4 Mbs off the overall size !!!
4 Mbs !!!
That's CRAZY !!!
Fixed the stairs.
SoUlFaThEr ... check your PM Box.
Cheers !

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

4MB ?? 8o come on you're bullshittin us !

does it affect the TS version too ?

[the Carpenter]

HAHAHA !

Yup ... I'm an idiot !
There are a LOT fewer entities in the CS version ... thus the different sizes.
However ... at the end of the day ... the TS version is 16 Mbs & the CS version is 10 Mb.
Crazy, huh ?

[the Carpenter]

This weekend ... I expect a release is in order.

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

<-- drools

[the Carpenter]

These are the most, VERY current shots I possess.

http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn01.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn02.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn03.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn04.jpg
http://www.accesscomm.ca/users/endo/tsn05.jpg

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

Arrrgh... admit it Carp: You are doing this on purpose! You want to see us suffer... always those screenies... then a delay... then more screenies... another delay...

<--- drools, too, btw.

[biohazerd87]

yeah stop teasing us

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

/me breaks into Carp's house and steals the rmf

[Huntkillaz]

did u ever work for valve carp :P

[the Carpenter]

I was, actually, one of the company's founding members.
I sold all of my shares for weed, early on though.
Once I realised I'd been ripped off, I never spoke to any of them again.

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

ROFLMAO

my poor bunny

sold all of your shares for weed ? And where's the bride gone ? :D

hahahahahahaha

[the Carpenter]

Well ... I knocked off some PODBot 2.5 waypoints for CS_Normandin.
One thing I've noticed is that they LOVE to storm right through the courtyard & go at it, head on.
I wonder if I shouldn't close up the window from the courtyard to the reception area on the CS version, to avoid this "speedmatch" scenario with bots.
Or ... should I not worry about what bots do. ;)
What do you guys think ?

[biohazerd87]

hhhmmm I could tell ya........................ IF I COULD PLAY IT

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

depends on the version of podbot yer using...

Use sPlOrYgOn's latest POD-bot 2.6mm with the A* pathfinder... after a couple rounds they'll get tired being shot near this window and they will probably avoid it

Else put the hostages elsewhere... like on the 3rd floor... at the dead end of a corridor. Else nobody will ever get to this floor

I'd put 2 hostages in the library, and 2 or 3 on the 3rd floor near the windows that are at the end of the corridors

try that

[SoUlFaThEr]

as for the waypoints i made for the map so far they RARELY went straight through....

2 of the 4 hostages are at a dead eand of a corridor in a room on the third floor PMB :)

[the Carpenter]

Mr. SoUlFaThEr ... go get youself a career !
I give you best wishes in that regard !
I'll make up my own waypoints.
That was my humble beginning, after all. :D
Cheers duder !

p.s. I moved the library hostages to the opposite corners on the top level.
The other two still reside in the teachers lounge.

[the Carpenter]

I'm compiling both versions again, today.
If they look OK tonight ... I'll release the TS version.
The CS version may take a while longer than that.
I'm having issues with the routes in the map, now that it isn't just straight up DM style.
We'll see.
Cheers !

[biohazerd87]

what is TS anyways. I have checked out some of your other maps and they are TS, so whats it mean in the object of that map

[sPlOrYgOn]

TS is The Specialists..
its not a different objective..
it's a whole'nother mod...
with special effects...

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

www.specialistsmod.net (http://www.specialistsmod.net)

action-movie style deathmatch

IMO, simply the best mod available for the HL engine. Better than CS.

[the Carpenter]

Absolutely !!!
Best HL Mod EVER.
Word.
I can't seem to release normandin ... even just mentally, maybe.
Should I just do it ?
I can't freakin' decide !!!
What would I possibly change to make it better ?
What if I made it worse ?
LOLZ !!!
Boy, howdy !!!
I just can't let the little tyke go. ;)

[SoUlFaThEr]

thanks Carp :)

[MusicMan]

release it dude, and if we find bugs well then you can just update it:)

[the Carpenter]

HAHAHA !!!
I noticed that the windows were messed up tonight.
Turns out that the original wad got re-included in the mix & it still had slightly different windows.
For instance ... the flag was black again. o_O
See ... I knew something was wrong !!! :P

[biohazerd87]

i just DLed TS and it kicks ass i wish i had known about it before!!!

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

<--- still drooling...

Carp, this is mental cruelty! Stop it please. You have the attention you want, you pwned the mapping forum with your thread (look at how many views it got!!), and you've taken about every delay you could... now please, pretty please, find the last little errors and releeeeaaaaaase! :'(

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

/me sings

me have the beta,
me have the beta,
lalala
:D

[SoUlFaThEr]

lol @ T-Wrecks.....

just drop to yer knees fer 'bout 10 minutes and a release will suddenly appear !!!

Carp knows how to PIMP a map thats for sure.......
getting resonation elsewhere of this multitude Carp?

[the Carpenter]

5500 views at the TS forums.

[Thirdeye]

hell ya carp keep ROCKIN ON!!!!!!

( jumps up and down till he passes out ... )

[the Carpenter]

LOLZ !!!
Have you tried playing TS yet, 3rd ?
It's more fun than Houston on a hot, summer night ... with stunts. ;)

[SoUlFaThEr]

angeber :)

[the Carpenter]

Tweaked 3 more things tonight that I'd missed before too.
Patience is truely a virtue in mapping.
:D :D :D

[>BKA< T Wrecks]

<---- has stopped drooling due to dehydration...

Even more in waiting for a mapper to get his stuff released. Well, at least there won't be endless faulty betas, or so I hope...

[SoUlFaThEr]

patience....is learned with mapping thats for damn sure!
i personally feel you have come a long way Carp.

the experience that you gained on this map right here will carry over into the next idea you build. and it will done faster. you will get faster.

i made cs_brainwash.my most highly detailed map....in just over 2 weeks...you will gain the same speed.....i know it....you are also worth a game company chance

[the Carpenter]

In my own defence, I've created every texture & sprite & redone every model in the map along the way.
Also ... invented the moving tree leaves & the fake reflective glass, which both took up a lot of time.
Built another map during the middle section.
Compound that with the loss of the .map file, etc.
Well ... you see my point.
Cheers !