Open-Source , how to handle?

[stefanhendriks]

Read the news, and tell me your ideas...

currently i have in mind:
- i release the source code some day
- i have a thread on this forum what things need to be worked on , this list of 'todo's' will be updated due testing/information/requests by users.
- people download the source and can choose:
-- work on it alone, make an own version (create own website, distribute it, credit me for using it, aka like the POD bot off-spring)
-- help developing RealBot itself (which i encourage!), work on the 'todo list' as mentioned above.

Code changes:
- can either be published on the forum. I will create a seperated forum section for this. As an example a form thread title could be like:

FIX: Bot's shooting hostages

Then in the forum thread you will have it like:

On line y of file z, change the following code

some code


into:


some other code


Etc.

I imagine a team should be assigned in order to keep the 'real source' updated to get releases done. People could either change their version by adapting the changes/fixes/adds by applying them from the forum. Or they wait and an (weekly?) update will be used.

Look people, i am serious about this. I want RealBot to be 'free' , i also want it to develop it further. I will not stop developing RealBot, but i will also not release the source when there is nothing organized so i don't just release it for the sake of it. I want to release the source with a solid purpose.

[Ava3ar]

sounds like a good idea, i wouldnt mind being on the official team, thus expanding my knowledge and giving the off-spring's something to aspire to

[[+Duracell-]]

This would be cool...although I don't know too much C++ :( I've only taken a basic course in Java, and I have a C++ book, so I'm willing to learn!

I just need something to push me in the right direction...botman's readme, maybe? *looks*

[davek]

sounds like an excellent idea, stefan. unfortunately, i don't think i know enough programming to be able to help much.

it would also be nice to get updates when u are working on other things :D

i stopped playing CS online years ago, the only reason i play now is to test out the bots you made. i find it really interesting what you have done so far. keep up the good work.

[stefanhendriks]

thanks davek, good to hear. You know, i actually play still cs because i am working on RealBot. I got lucky when i found a good on-line server for myself later. If i never worked on RB, i probably did not even play CS anymore.

The coding experience you need to write stuff for the bot is actually not that much imo. The very basics are:

- understanding of 3d a bit (you can think a bit in 3d)
- you should understand how a program works (line by line), you have to think like a program.
- know the basics of C (C++ not nescesary!)
- get yourself a (free) compiler.

Actually i think the following code is understandable to most people aging from 15 years old.


a = a + 2;


except for the ;, it looks like a normal math formula. When A is 3, then the sum becomes:

A = 3 + 2
A = 5

And this was actual code, very simple code of course.

When i want to code sollution, like handling buttons. I think in small steps. What do you do as a human to open the door? Lets pretend you are stupid, dumb and you really think doors _only_ open by touching it. What will you do when it does NOT open by touching it? You will probably think WHY, and yo uwill find the SWITCH. Now, thats what RB does too:

- when door is not opening when touching
- find a switch
- go to it
- use/touch it
- go back to door and resume path

when you have come this far, you did 40% of the work. Now you need to know what variables and functions are available (read-> instruments/tools) to make this work.

Anyway, i always comment my code a lot, so i think eventually you will understand and even able to apply patches.

[Nova]

stefan, for the kind of thing that U have in mind i think CVS would be a good thing. You could put the source on the CVS in read-only, so that any users that has a BU email adress can look at it, and then u can specify specific people that can write ... if something changes, the next time u do an update on your local computer it will tell you that stuff has changed. If you dont like the change ... fair enuf .. just go back to an earlier revision and delete the other one :)

CVS is really nifty !

[stefanhendriks]

I will look into this CVS thing. But it also stops a lot of people to try on bots when they have to download multiple programs just to get a source. Anyway, i could set up a tutorial for that too. I think we need an own CVS server for that Nova? Is that possible?

[T!m]

[/code] .....You will probably think WHY, and yo uwill find the SWITCH. Now, thats what RB does too:

- when door is not opening when touching
- find a switch
- go to it
- use/touch it
- go back to door and resume path



about the switch thing, does it only (as you discribe) work for doors or wil the bot also use camera's, elevators(button activated), ect. ?
I mean can you split them into different catogoties or will rb see it as one!?

I guess it can be split other wise i can imagine the bot get pretty confiused by ex. camera's.
or am i totally off cource now!?! :o

[stefanhendriks]

T!m, i know you want to know, but this is not really the thread to handle it.

To answer your question:
- it only knows for doors. Only when obstructed. It does not know what an elevator/camera is.

A camera will not obstruct a bot, thus it will not find a button for it either.

[TruB]

sounds to me PMB will have something more to do..

[davek]

- understanding of 3d a bit (you can think a bit in 3d)
- you should understand how a program works (line by line), you have to think like a program.
- know the basics of C (C++ not nescesary!)
- get yourself a (free) compiler.

u make it sounds so easy :)

i could probably do some stuff. i have all those things u mentioned, cept for the compiler, which i cant imagine is hard to obtain.

i suppose if your comments are good and u have other documentation, i could probably work on it. it would be a good way to get some practice in coding too, since i havent done it in a while. hm. might give me something to do at work too :D

[Serj]

Hello, Stefan!
First, thank you for your work, once more! =)

Second, I aprove your decision to make your project as open source! This is a GOOD idea! And I think the sourceforge.net (http://sourceforge.net/) is a good place for it. 8)

From the official sourceforge docs (http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=14033&group_id=1):

"CVS, Concurrent Versions System, is a tool used by many software development teams to store their source code in a centralized location. CVS allows everyone to obtain a copy of this source code (i.e. everyone is provided read-only access) and allows developers of the software to also make changes to the source code stored in that central location.
...

SourceForge.net provides a number of services to projects hosted on SourceForge.net which are related to CVS.
First, SourceForge.net provides each project with their own CVS repository. All developers on a project are automatically, as a function of the SourceForge team management system, granted the permissions to commit changes to that repository. Only registered development team members (http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=14033&group_id=1#accesstypes) (i.e. the members of the project team on SourceForge.net) may write to a project CVS repository. Developers will need to have both a CVS client package and a compatible SSH client (http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=6841&group_id=1#top)."

[MusicMan]

Where do you find all the variables and functions you can use Stefan, that is actually one of the biggest problems I have when I try to code bots:)

Thanks in advance

MusicMan

edit: Sorry about this offtopic post, but it's just because you mentioned something about it in this thread;)

[Onno Kreuzinger]

i would say that, if you do not want cvs, you must atleast use patch and diff, in order to have some change of importing code easy and understandable.
a diff looks like this:

diff -uHr vdr-1.2.0.patched/svdrp.c vdr-1.2.0/svdrp.c
--- vdr-1.2.0.patched/svdrp.c 2003-04-27 16:21:07.000000000 +0200
+++ vdr-1.2.0/svdrp.c 2003-06-06 21:34:03.000000000 +0200
@@ -726,7 +726,10 @@
else if (recordings) {
cRecording *recording = Recordings.First();
while (recording) {
- Reply(recording == Recordings.Last() ? 250 : -250, "%d %s", recording->Index() + 1, recording->Title(' ', true));
+ cIndexFile *oIndex = new cIndexFile(recording->FileName(), false);
+ const char *sTime = IndexToHMSF(oIndex->Last());
+ Reply(recording == Recordings.Last() ? 250 : -250, "%d %s\t<%s>", recording->Index() + 1, recording->Title(' ', true), sTime);
+ delete oIndex;
recording = Recordings.Next(recording);
}
}

the first line shows the comand used to generate the diff, its very easy to make and all tools needed are 2 executables available for all operating systems (most compilers do come along with "diff" and "patch" allready)

i know of good and big/complex software which is developed by using a mailinglist and diffs/patches and no cvs. since the software is widely used the mailinglist has quite some traffic (20-50 mails per day).
but this assumes everybody uses a mailer and has some basic knowlege how to handle larger amounts of emails per day :)

[zyrain]

IF you want an alternative to CVS check out: Codeville (http://codeville.org/)

[[WPSC]Silver Ghost]

A very interesting thread. I would like to go back to programming again, but I'm a bit rusty...I used to do assembler, fortran,algol and cobol...that was a long time ago. Seems this project is a good idea, I will have to pick up the threads.. what about classes and data structures, variables...where do we get those from...so many questions....it's a challenge :)

[FrostyCoolSlug]

Sounds like a great idea. I would love to be involved with this, i have some C++ experiance, and bot compiling experiance as well. I use CVS in other projects i work on, and i also know that Sourceforge is a pain in the ass to use. (no offence intended, i have 3 projects on there, i've been forced to avoid the SF CVS for various reasons)

for (int a = 0; a < 256; a++) { print "If you understand this, you \"own\"\n"; }

:D

[minorgod]

I'd love to help too. I've got some C++ and tons of PHP, JavaScript (hate it) and ActionScript (Flash...hate it..sort of). I'm game...I've always wished I could look at some well-documented bot source code so I could learn how to write bots myself. I've been following the RealBOt development thread since it was just a text file. I think programming is fundementally the same in most common languages in the Post-C era...it's mostly a matter of different syntax doing the same types of things. If your code is well commented I'm pretty sure I can figure it out.

As far as a CVS system, I've never used one and have no opinion. If I can find good directions, I'm sure I can set one up. It does seem like almost a necessity for this type of project. I also second the motion for Sourceforge as the place to do it if you decide to go with a CVS. They are established, time-tested and have lots of developers mulling about.
__________________
Nowhere does science promise emancipation.

[Nova]

for (int a = 0; a < 256; a++) { print "If you understand this, you \"own\"\n"; }
:D
translated into english:

Why would you want to print that sentence to the screen 256 times ? :)

[V or 'Tex]

Moreover, don't you have to actually call the CS function in order to get that to display?

[@$3.1415rin]

your compiler won't like that one ... at least if that's supposed to be C/C++

@V or'Tex : maybe he's redirecting the output :)

[stefanhendriks]

http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/index.php/RealBot%20Open-Source%20documentation

[Onno Kreuzinger]

ok, i propose going to berlios.de (same system as SF, but way better service) for source code hosting, it looks like a well tought out system (SF deluxe so to say) and our CVS, like all CVS, sucks big time on the serverside, is more unsecure than ftp, more complicated than emacs and less documented than the microsoft protocolls :(

[stefanhendriks]

i will look into that. If all else fails to convince me, i will just do it 'my way' :)

[Onno Kreuzinger]

well as sh*t happens often, berlios.de is n/a today, i downloaded some files last week, but heck today the whole site is just dead, i.e. timeout on connect...

[Hacker Harry]

i welcome your thoughts, stefan!
and i entirely agree with Serj to make this a sourceforge project.

Best Bytes®,
Harry

[Ava3ar]

SF is annoying, might as well scream steal me now.net,

i think (cant remember name soz)'s idea was the best to have a safe version that is only accessable/editable to people in a small group, and a wide version (say .2 behind or somet) for the rest of the community, that way work gets done and the latest stuff is kept hidden, and anyone else can have a look at old code and tinker with it

[stefanhendriks]

I also read in the pod_mm thread that there is a way to have a liberal person who gets all changes and who is in charge of distribution and the like.

Perhaps thats the most safe way for me too, i will keep in control of what gets released officially. Yet we all (especially the team members) submit changes to the code.

[@$3.1415rin]

I havnt made that bad experiences with sf.net. OK, you gotta keep the dates in mind where they do their server maintenance, but the other time it's pretty ok

[Nova]

I also read in the pod_mm thread that there is a way to have a liberal person who gets all changes and who is in charge of distribution and the like.

Perhaps thats the most safe way for me too, i will keep in control of what gets released officially. Yet we all (especially the team members) submit changes to the code.
Hmm, i dont really get this.

You dont really want open-source, you want something like a half thingy.

True OpenSource to me =
ANYONE is able to see ANY part of the code that is considered to be the program (or library or whatever)

[@$3.1415rin]

Stefan, Using CVS you can also always go back a few changes, so you can still control it. An additional thread here in the forum might still be useful to talk about what to change, though

[stefanhendriks]

Nova, you mis understood.

The source is available to all, you should be able to download it and do whatever you want with it. I am talking about how to handle its progress when multiple programmers want to work on this project.

At the very top of this thread i have already said this:

- you either create your own offspring
OR
- you work as a team on RealBot itself and as a team improve this

Eventually it has to be released, and since there are mutliple wishes to do with the code i suggest there is a seperated forum with all the explenations and found bug-fixes so everybody can just choose and fix what they want to fix, add what they want to add etc.

As for the official releases (they will continue) i have to keep track somehow what fixes are made and there has to be some organized manner so we don't get redundant work here.

[stefanhendriks]

http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/index.php/Organisation%20%26%20Distribution

AND:

http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/index.php/Team%20Members

[stefanhendriks]

I also have seen a CVS page has come up about CVS. I will look into this. Its interesting. Btw wiki rules ;)

[Onno Kreuzinger]

Ok,
ppls Nova and me got our cvs working, i allready checked in the filebase and the wiki for people interessted in working.
See this wiki document to learn what our cvs is all about:
http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/index.php/UseCvs

cheers Onno

[stefanhendriks]

I can't get it working though :(, i am trying for 1.5 hours already

[@$3.1415rin]

maybe a problem with the users, onno ? cause my passwd from the email account is rejected all the time, I already put me to the cvs user group for testing, since poponly didnt look so promising, but that wasnt the reason neither

[Onno Kreuzinger]

i do not have your passwords, i trusted webmin that he could copy them :-(

well then pls. mail me username/password i should enter for you: ok@bots-united.com, i will then setup accounts for you, also anyone who thinks he could need commit access pls. tell me.

i will revert the re-use of known usernames.

[Onno Kreuzinger]

did anonymous access work ? (is the client working?)

[@$3.1415rin]

I checked out the filebase anonymously, so that's obviously fine

I'm sending you a pm about username passwd

[stefanhendriks]

I tried it anonymous, but it would not allow me to have access somehow:


In C:\Projecten\RealBot\metamod-1.17\filebase: C:\Program Files\TortoiseCVS\cvs.exe -q checkout -P filebase

CVSROOT=:sserver:anonymous@bots-united.com:/home/cvsroot/filebase

cvs checkout: Empty password used - try 'cvs login' with a real password

cvs [checkout aborted]: /home/cvsroot/filebase: no such repository

[PsychicX]

It's not letting me get anonymous access. It says no such user and then asks for a password:
In E:\Half-Life\RealBot Source: C:\Program Files\TortoiseCVS\cvs.exe -q checkout filebase
CVSROOT=:sserver:anonymous@bots-united.com:/home/cvsroot

cvs checkout: Empty password used - try 'cvs login' with a real password

Fatal error, aborting.
cvs [checkout aborted]: anonymous: no such user

Error, CVS operation failed

Tortoise Tip: Sometimes you get this error if you have the repository folder wrong in the Checkout dialog. Make sure you have a slash at the start of the folder name, and that the case and path are correct. Watch out for spurious trailing characters.

Examples are: "/cvsroot", "/usr/local/cvs-repository", "/cvsroot/cvsgui"

[stefanhendriks]

Nova & Onno do some very great work at the moment. It seems to work now for RealBot although no-one can use the source yet:

- its not officially released
- you will need login in :P

[@$3.1415rin]

listing of modules and downloading those works now ... at least for my account :)

[Onno Kreuzinger]

ok stefan, please check in again :)

[stefanhendriks]

Ok. I think it is time to update the wiki page.

I will use CVS for the project. I like it so far and once you know how to set it up and how to do it, it is not that hard to do at all.

All that is left is that there will be a special account for team-members who all use the same username and pass. I will update my news page with an url so you can apply as 'team member'.

[Onno Kreuzinger]

so you want anonymous cvs access allowed

[stefanhendriks]

anonymoys on the realbot source? No. I only want people to be able to use CVS on that module when they are a team member.

[Onno Kreuzinger]

ok, i will then edit the .perms file in the realbot folder, you should then be able to get the point, i will also add a realbot-cvs user (for your team) to the cvs system.

[Ava3ar]

signed up, just waiting now for My ADSL modem light to stop flashing so i can start using it

[@$3.1415rin]

stefan, do you really want to deny read access to anonymous users ? I made the experience that the users often just browse the sources and send you an email then if they found an error, and this way they get into the team. So I would allow anonymous read access on the sources.

[Pierre-Marie Baty]

^-- I second that

[stefanhendriks]

oh, i misunderstood. Read access is fine, by reading the source and finding bugs like that would also contribute.

[Onno Kreuzinger]

ok, it's now public readable

[stefanhendriks]

Nice :) so, although not officialy released people can already take a look at the code i am working on to get WIP 10 ready :)

[[WPSC]Silver Ghost]

Yes, thanks, it's now public for read access. Now for some studying :)

[V or 'Tex]

My opinion: you should have trusted sourceforge. It's got a way more intuitive system... this wiki stuff is ass-backwards... I for example can't find the source, compiled or not.

[Onno Kreuzinger]

My opinion: you should have trusted sourceforge. It's got a way more intuitive system... this wiki stuff is ass-backwards... I for example can't find the source, compiled or not. well who said that code is in the wiki?
SF does not even have a wiki by default.
Berlios does: http://www.berlios.de/index.php.en, but they where down for some days, exactly the days stefan started to make realbot public...

like SF we use CVS for the code, and heck darn its even a SSL version of cvs we have, not cvs-over-ssh for developers, since we are no project hosting only organisation.

oh and please ask someone using sourceforge about "trusted" before complaining here, no particular good remarks i have heard of ...

the compiled source (which is then a binary) is in the:
REALBOT DOWNLOAD AREA (http://realbot.bots-united.com/downloads.html)

where else do you expect it to be?
(remeber, the source is in the cvs, like everywhere on "the net", not in the wiki, which is a communication and knowlege tool anyways (http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/))

cheers Onno


p.s.
@anyone else (e.g. Mr. President) http://www.berlios.de/index.php.en seems to be up and working as expected, perhaps take a closer look into moving bigger projects there.

[Nova]

Thanks memed. you saved me from having i minor heart attack while writing a reply to that post.

Im sorry dude, but i only have 4 words for you:

:RTFM:

[TruB]

or just four letters..

[Onno Kreuzinger]

yeah, esp. after a post from someone who managed to get it. not to speak of the bot development pak's in the filebase, which would allow anyone to build this bot on linux and windows (even a free win compiler is mentioned here in the forums).

[Hacker Harry]

yo!
just took a l00k at the current source:
no trivial thing... ;-)

and one needs hlsdk-2.3 and metamod sources to compile, uh?

hmm. is it worth trying? (i bet)
or shall i wait for the next binary?
how large is that hlsdk-2.3 anyway?
lets check...
(gasp...aaaargl)
hl_sdk_v23.exe 04-Oct-2002 23:49 112M HL SDK source
hl_sdk_v23_source.exe 04-Oct-2002 23:48 5.0M HL SDK source
hmmm... question is.. do i really need the 112M file?

loads of questions today... sorry ;-)

anyway...
cheers!
Best Bytes®,
Harry

[MusicMan]

what is it that makes the hl full sdk 112 mb in comparison to the source only? does the big one also contain a compiled sdk or is it something else?

[Onno Kreuzinger]

omg, read my post, " ... the bot build pak's...in our filebase...allow anyone to compile.. this bot.."
/hint the link to the filebase is in my sig and in the upper right corner/
(the build pack includes the neede files of hlsdk and the sources of metamod)

[MusicMan]

I dont understand what you are saying Onno, I have all the SDK stuff from the filebase, I just asked what it was making the size of the Full SDK so much bigger than the source-only. Is it because it contains a compiled SDK or maybe some extra's?

[Onno Kreuzinger]

oh sorry got that totaly wrong :)
nevermind

[MusicMan]

np mate;)

[Onno Kreuzinger]

i saw the other threat ...
(yes i though your post was his)
sorry dude, once more

[MusicMan]

np at all mate;)

[Nova]

np at all mate;)
Are you an Aussie ? Coz the mate sounds like it. If yes, whereabouts in OZ r u from, coz im down here at the moment.

Regards,
Seb

[Hacker Harry]

omg, read my post, " ... the bot build pak's...in our filebase...allow anyone to compile.. this bot.."
/hint the link to the filebase is in my sig and in the upper right corner/
(the build pack includes the neede files of hlsdk and the sources of metamod)

jo... schulligung!
must have overlooked it.
i'll lower my head in shame...

Best Bytes®,
Harry

[Onno Kreuzinger]

*g* what a nice ending for this thread,
we all just love bots don't we ;)

[MusicMan]

Are you an Aussie ? Coz the mate sounds like it. If yes, whereabouts in OZ r u from, coz im down here at the moment.

Regards,
SebNo, I am sorry but I am not:( , I would have liked to meet you if I was down there though;)
I am Danish, I just love to say mate alot:D

[Hacker Harry]

MAN! i got it compiled...

i'd never compiled a dll before... how should
i know i had to use the dllwrap program? ;)
i used gcc 2.95.3-8 (from http://mingw.org)
and adapted the makefile...
it compiled like a charm! ;)

thanx again for your excellent work!
Best Bytes®,
Harry

[PsychicX]

You know, the 2.95 GCC is really old, really standards uncompliant, and really just plain bad.

Don't they have a MinGW based on the GCC 3.x series? I thought they did...although I'd love to setup GCC 3.4 on Windows. Sort of. I'm rather fond of my Visual Studio, actually :)

[Hacker Harry]

You know, the 2.95 GCC is really old, really standards uncompliant, and really just plain bad.

Don't they have a MinGW based on the GCC 3.x series? I thought they did...although I'd love to setup GCC 3.4 on Windows. Sort of. I'm rather fond of my Visual Studio, actually :)
that was just a coincidence...
i had to fiddle so much; and first time i compiled it
correctly just happened to be with 2.95.3-8.
(i also have 3.2.x and 3.3.x)
do you think the code is gonna be hell faster recompiled
with 3.x? ;)

hmmm.. to your CTs get out of the fridge in de_rats?
do they climb ladders now?
(build is 3043)
sorry... i'm getting too far OT

Best Bytes®,
Harry

[Onno Kreuzinger]

You know, the 2.95 GCC is really old, really standards uncompliant, and really just plain bad.

Don't they have a MinGW based on the GCC 3.x series? I thought they did...although I'd love to setup GCC 3.4 on Windows. Sort of. I'm rather fond of my Visual Studio, actually :)
you are aware that gcc 2.95 is the compiler user for the kernel ? i think it does not meet the newest ISO C(C++ guidelines, but that is ok, is was developed bofore the newer guidelines came out. and as fas as linux is concerned, it the compiler to use if you do not have a 9.x distro. At least when it comes to stability and portability.

@Hacker Harry could you please share your modified files with us, so that the next one does not have to figure it all out himself again?
Thx

cheers Onno

[Hacker Harry]

[...]
@Hacker Harry could you please share your modified files with us, so that the next one does not have to figure it all out himself again?
[...]

no problem...
shall i dump my Makefile into this thread?
or upload it somewhere else?

Best Bytes®,
Harry

[Onno Kreuzinger]

just zip and attach here, preferably with some sort of (minimalistic) guide to tell how to use it.
i will test it and put it in the CVS, in that case it will become part of the next release.

cheers Onno

[Hacker Harry]

just zip and attach here, preferably with some sort of (minimalistic) guide to tell how to use it.
i will test it and put it in the CVS, in that case it will become part of the next release.

cheers Onno

Affirmative ;)

i've added a few comment lines that should suffice...

Best Bytes®,
Harry

[Maleficus]

Hello.

Just curious - do you have to have team member status to look at the source, or do you have it open somewhere?

[@$3.1415rin]

you can look at the code without team member status. just try it !

[davek]

Hello.

Just curious - do you have to have team member status to look at the source, or do you have it open somewhere?
u have to download a cvs client and download it that way. there are directions somewhere in this forum... sorry i dont remember where exactly, just do a search.

[@$3.1415rin]

http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/index.php/UseCvs

[Maleficus]

http://server.bots-united.com/wiki/index.php/UseCvs
Ah, thx! Thats what I needed to know. :)